Ranger Witchguard skirmisher?


Rules Questions

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Patron (Su)

A witchguard learns something of arcane magic from the witches he defends. At 4th level, when a witchguard gains the ability to cast spells, he must also select a patron, as the witch class feature. This patron is usually the same as the patron of the witch he is sworn to protect, but the witchguard may choose any patron. The witchguard adds the first four spells from his patron’s spell list to his ranger spell list. The witchguard cannot cast patron spells of a level he is unable to cast.

doesnt call out changing/replacing spells

Hunter’s Tricks

At 5th level, a skirmisher Ranger learns the use of hunter’s tricks, which typically grant a boon or bonus to the Ranger or a nearby ally. At 5th level, the Ranger learns one trick, selected from the list below. At 7th level, and every two levels thereafter, he learns another trick. A Ranger can use these tricks a total number of times per day equal to 1/2 his Ranger level + his Wisdom modifier. Tricks are usually swift actions, but sometimes move or free actions that modify a standard action, usually an attack action. Once a trick is chosen, it can’t be retrained. A Ranger cannot select an individual trick more than once.

This ability replaces the Ranger’s spells class feature. Skirmishers do not gain any spells or spellcasting ability, do not have a caster level, and cannot use spell trigger and spell completion magic items.

is the combo legit


I'll allow it. (if that is the only "conflict")

Though effectively the Patron ability becomes useless.

Dark Archive

for pfs. RAW it doesnt say it replaces or alters spells

Shadow Lodge

at a home game I'd allow it. In PFS I'm not sure if it flies.

Dark Archive

anyone know if this is legit?


The Patron ability adds to the Ranger's Spell List, it doesn't add spellcasting ability on its own. While the Spell List isn't referenced explicitly in the example list of things the Hunter’s Tricks ability disallows, since you can't have a Spell List if you don't have the Spells ability, I would say the two abilities are incompatible.

Dark Archive

I know it doesn't make a lot of sense, but RAW does it work?

Shadow Lodge

anyone else?


The fact that the spell list is being altered (spells added) would mean the class 'Spells' ability is actually being 'changed' by the archtype.

And another way to look at it, you cannot add spells to a spell list if the class ability is no longer is available. For the archtype to add spells to a list, the list needs to exist.

For archtype stacking to be legitimate, every possible order of application of the archtype needs to 'work.' This pair fails when you apply skirmisher first, it removes the spell class feature which the witchguard archtype attempts to alter.


PRD Alternate Class Features wrote:


...
Each alternate class feature presented in an archetype replaces a specific class feature from its parent class.
...
A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature. For example, a fighter could not be both an armor master and a brawler, since both archetypes replace the weapon training 1 class feature with something different.

At first I was under the impression that if an archtype does not specifically say it is overriding class feature X, then it doesn't and its ok to match that to an archtype that does.

The rules say that if it even alters the class feature then it can't be taken with an archetype that does change that class feature.

For OP: In a home game I would completely allow this one because the character is actually losing out. However when it comes to PFS, the rule seems to be: when in doubt, leave it out.


Even if you can combine archetypes you still have :

'Skirmishers do not gain any spells or spellcasting ability, do not have a caster level, and cannot use spell trigger and spell completion magic items.'

making it kinda useless, altogether it seems to alter the same thing though so i wouldnt allow it, only hardcore raw lawyers would even argue the point, maybe.

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