Squeezing the most out of this Druid / Barbarian / Fighter build

[Fakefurcoats]

So...I am playing a level 2 Sauran Shaman right now in my Pathfinder Campaign and I'm wondering how to get the best (or if its even a good idea) with a build I'm messing around with. What I have right now is
Level 2 Sauran Shaman Half-giant (with the psionic stuff removed).

I am planing on taking 2 levels of Unbreakable/Fighter for feats and heavy armor pro and 2 Levels of Urban Barbarian for rage and rage powers that give me horns and stuff to survive rage death. Take Sauran Shaman to level 6 and then the last ten (if we get that far) in Master of Many Forms or just more Druid...

Am I over looking something or maybe you guys have better ideas where I can go with this build? What I want is animal companion (I am ready to take Boon Companion if I have to), Wild Shape with that "Powerful Build" from Half-Giant and rage and lesser horns rage power...and maybe spells if I can fit them in to enhance my form (I know there is a spell were I grow thorns that sounded nice for Wild Shape Horned Allo Full Attack Actions)...then stuff to make sure I don't die from Rage...

Thanks!

[blackbloodtroll]

That would hurt your spellcasting.

[Fakefurcoats]

I don't really plan on doing much spell casting really...I have never really played a character in pathfinder past level 2-3 really so I don't know...would I be doing a disservice to my character or worse, my team? I figure since we have a arcane sorcerer, a alchemist, and a ranger...I am seeing my role as damage and meat shield with off hand healing at random times after combat and stuff...

[blackbloodtroll]

Indeed.

Pathfinder rewards sticking to one class.

With more powerful spells and Wildshape, you will be quite formidable.

[Fakefurcoats]

So is that why there wasn't many prestige classes that caught my eye? How about if I take 16 levels of druid and take the boon feat and the other feat that lets me count up to four other levels as druid classes for spells? I lose two feats but I kinda get more stuff then I could have gotten with the shape change at will and maybe one more level 9+4 level sauran shaman feats...

Also what spells would I be losing out in those top 4 levels that I just have to have?

[blackbloodtroll]

Unlike 3.5, Pathfinder really makes taking the class all the way worth it.

You will want the Natural Spell, and Powerful Shape feats.

If you must multiclass, then Shapeshifter Ranger is a good choice.

Following the multiclass route, you will want the Shapeshifting Hunter feat.

If you want to talk during Wild Shape, you will want the Wild Speech feat.

[Quandary]

fakefurcoats wrote:

Also what spells would I be losing out in those top 4 levels that I just have to have?

Uh... that info is right in the core Druid class: you'd miss out on all 9th level spells.

There are Feats which boost 'Caster Level' but that does not grant new spells/spell level access,
it just boosts scaling of spell effects, caster level checks like dispel, and things like concentration.
('Caster Level' is a distinct rules term from 'Spellcasting Progression' or 'Class Level of spellcasting class')

If you want to focus more on melee combat than spellcasting, consider the War and Rage Domains (the latter a Sub-Domain from APG).
Those are both uniquely available to Saurian Shamans, unlike other Druids, although you must give up the Companion.

If you really want to multiclass, OK, I'm not sure if Unbreakable is really the best option, or really 4 levels of any Fighter.
Cavalier/Samurai are both good 'fighty' options, and their Mount fully stacks with Druid Companion (for better stats).
(if you choose a Companion instead of Domain with the Druid, otherwise that Horse is cannon fodder at Level 20)
They are usually thought of as CHA-linked Classes, but if you are only taking 4 levels you don't even get Banner, so you can mostly ignore that if you want.
Even Inquisitor is a workable option, also casting using WIS, and it fully progresses Domain powers so you won't get behind on those if you select the same Domain.
Any of those should be freely dippable at any point, not just all at the end.

[lemeres]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

That would hurt your spellcasting.

That would hurt your ability to turn into all the DINOSAURS!!!1111oneone!

The advantage of the saurian shaman is that it can 1.) summon a wide variety of dinosaurs using a standard action and 2.) it can turn into larger dinosaurs at an earlier level. While this might seem restricting, the templates that the archetype lets you put onto your choices actually means that you have quick access to over 51 options across all levels which can cover land, air, and sea and many of them have sweet abilities such as scent and pounce (many dinosaurs have 3-5 attacks, which makes this very appealing). You also get all these boosts with reptiles in general, so snakes and giant lizards are options too.

Remember, you want will want to wild shape. It lasts for hours per level, which means you can spend a quarter of the day as a beasty from the get go. You will want to take the feat that lets you do spells in wild form at level 5 though. Multiclassing would not only weaken and delay your wildshaping, but also delay your additional uses per day. Your choices will end up rather limited when you can only transform twice per day.

I will admit though, if you can squeeze in all of the crane style with a two level dip with MoMS...well...dinosaurs rarely have anything in their hands other than the cold corpses of their prey. I do like the image of a dinosaur that knows kung-fu. Mechanically, it is a rather sizable defensive boost for only -1 to attack when you have all three feats.

[Quandary]

I don't believe Saurian Shaman Archetype mentions Templates at all, for Wildshape or anything else...?
Is there some Feat that does that that you were thinking of?
It does function at +2 class level, so a 4 level dip means you are only 2 levels behind in Wildshape,
meaning 8/day with a 16Druid/4X build, instead of 'at-will' wildshape...

[blackbloodtroll]

Basically, more Druid levels equals bigger, nastier Dinosaurs you can shape into.

Dinosaurs that cause earthquakes, summon storms, command lightning, and walk through walls of fire.

All Druid levels get you this.

[soupturtle]

Whether you want to focus on melee, spellcasting, or an allround character, you definitely want to go to Druid 6 first to get the full set of dinosaur wild shape options. After that, if your role in the party is still mostly melee, multiclassing is a decent option. Barbarian is good, master of many styles monk is also a pretty strong option (wis to AC and access to the crane style and dragon style feats) and some form of fighter can give you a bunch of feats (even style feats if you go unarmed fighter).

I'd still go up to druid 7 sooner rather than later though, to get the strong jaw spell. If you ever have the space to become a huge dinosaur casting that spell will put your damage through the roof.

[Fakefurcoats]

Whoa, thanks for all the advice guys! I'm sorry I didn't check the guide for the list of spells I would lose at those levels.

I don't think I want to take any levels into ranger since we already have one. And my cha is at "8" so yea, I never really gave any of those classes a look due to not really fitting so much with my "Tarzan" character...fighter? Maybe...barbarian yeah..

I already picked a T-Rex so I wanna get him to be even with me all the way. I'm not sure about those templates either. Maybe the advanced and large for the dinos and reptiles summons?

I think I will get to at least level 6 before I even think of multiclassing. You guys really make a good case for more to full druid levels. The question I have now is when I wild shape my ac will dip. More so because I don't have wild armor. At these low levels am I thinking the idea is kill the enemy before they can hit me? The big reason why I wanted fighter is for heavy armor. Is the monk ac boost better? My wisdom is 14 right now. And I am using hide armor.

[soupturtle]

There are five reasonably accomplishable ways to up your AC in wild shape, beyond the items everyone has access to (ring of protection) and your druid spells (barkskin!).

The first one is the mage armor spell. You buy a wand of mage armor, give it to your sorcerer, and get them to buff you with it every hour. Cheap and effective.

The second one is wild armor. This is really expensive, so more of a late game option. Heavy armor proficiency only helps once you can afford to get an expensive suit of wild armor. And remember that druids cannot wear metal armor, so your options are limited. Still, stone plate or dragon hide full plate with the wild enchantment is probably the strongest armor you can get, so keep it in mind.

The third option is defensive fighting, combined with the crane style feat (and possibly also crane riposte - crane wing won't work, as you don't have hands in wild shape). This can work pretty well, especially if you can get the feat cheaply (such as as an unarmed fighter/master of many styles monk bonus feat).

The fourth option is a monk dip for wis to AC. This only gives you a small boost with your base wis, but you can also get wis items later. I'd only do this if I also wanted the style feats though. In that case, a 2 level monk dip could give you +7 to AC (defensive fighting + wis boost) for only a -1 to hit (if you get crane style and crane riposte as your bonus feats). And it would significantly boost your saves as well. Also, this stacks with the wand of mage armor (not with barding or wild armor, as monks needs to be unarmored) for an easy +11 for the cost of a 2 level dip.

The fifth option is barding. This probably has the best AC/cost ratio, but it is complicated in game. Basically, you have a suit of barding made for one specific form that you shift into a lot, and then get the rest of your party to put it on you any time you shift into that form.

For the crane style options, note that in terms of to hit getting crane style from a level of unarmed fighter is equivalent to getting crane style and crane riposte from two levels of monk (as fighter is full BAB and monk isn't), but the monk also gets the wis bonus. However, since the wis bonus only works when unarmored, you lose that advantage if you ever get wild armor or barding instead of just a wand of mage armor.

[lemeres]

Quandary wrote:

I don't believe Saurian Shaman Archetype mentions Templates at all, for Wildshape or anything else...?

Is there some Feat that does that that you were thinking of?
It does function at +2 class level, so a 4 level dip means you are only 2 levels behind in Wildshape,
meaning 8/day with a 16Druid/4X build, instead of 'at-will' wildshape...

Whoops poor wording, I suppose. Your summoning gets all those templates (young, advanced, giant) this means that the summons you are used to can be used longer, and you can get a weakened form of a more powerful summon sooner. This makes them very appealing for a quick mount since you have all those options with movement and attack. You do not get it as a standard action until level 5 though. This and the bonus to level for wildshaping are the main reasons to play a saurian shaman. Do not limit your options right after you get them.

Also, soupturtle, are you sure that you can't use crane wing as a dinosaur? I am mostly thinking of the bipedal varieties, such as allosaurus. Would that not count as having arms? ....part of me also wants to see you do it with a T-rex...because deflecting attacks with those tiny arms would be hilariousness.

[Quandary]

aDinosaurs can't really wield weapons or even things like wands in their limbs, I don't think they are meant to work with crane wing, which requires 'one open hand', i.e. a hand that is not holding something. If you can't really hold things in the hand to begin with, distinctions of 'open hand' don't really apply to you any more, any more than for a non-functional vestigial hand. If you were Wildshaped into some sort of Ape it should be able to work though.

So the OP is primarily interested in Wildshaping himself, if he is a Saurian Shaman he isn't getting any more powerful forms past 6th level, just longer usages (he's at 8hrs/Wildshape already at 6th level) and more usages. I don't see a realistic reason why advancing beyond 16th level is important for that goal, unless Unlimited vs. 8x 18hr duration Wildshape is really that important.

Just to emphasize, the OP also mentioned he liked the Companion option, which is fine and a good option, but the other Domain options (War and Rage) specifically grant some things that you might want to get out of a Martial multi-class, so taking those options means you're shoring the Martial side up even before taking any classes. If you want to take Fighter or Cavalier/Samurai or Inquisitor, Rage Domain works well (although it has the inherent problem of interfering with spellcasting: caveat emptor), you get two Rage Powers that don't have level pre-reqs.

If you want to dip Barbarian (or even if not), the Anger Inquisition (listed in Inquisitor section of Ultimate Magic but selectable by anybody with Domain access) can be very nice: Immediate Action attack after you are attacked, but the levels seem to fully count (-3) as Barb levels, meaning that although you don't gain Rage Powers directly from it, if you gain them via Barbarian levels (or Extra Rage Power Feat once you've hit Barbarian/2) you can count your Druid Level-3 towards Rage Power level pre-requisites... And being realistic, Rage Powers outclass Feats as a whole.

War Domain is good with any dip (although if you dip Barbarian you will be wanting for Rage Rounds if you don't gain them via Domain/Inquisition), mostly for the on-the-fly selectable Combat Feat (Swift Action activation, you must meet the Pre-Reqs but with a Fighter/Cavalier you can take Fighter Level Pre-Req Feats) and the Domain spell list: Magic Vestment to bump up your AC (throw on a superman cape over your T-Rex form) until you can manage a Wild Enchanted Non-Metallic Fullplate, Divine Power, Flame Strike, Blade Barrier, Power Word: Blind/Stun/Kill.

[Fakefurcoats]

Thanks again guys! I think I have a better view on what I will do with my character. Yeah, next time I will take the domain stuf. I just couldn't say no to a dino pal...my inner child, ya know? still, I'm having fun...

Superman cape on a dino? Awesome...@_@

[Quandary]

:-)