Full-attack clarification

[Skooma]

Hello everybody.

I am sorry if the answer to my question is somewhere but I could not manage to find that one in particular :

Ok here is the problem (I am not a native english speaker and so perhaps my question will look obvious to you; but with my group, we could not manage to find an answer):

Can you choose to make a full-attack action even if you have only one attack per round? Here are the cases when it gets useful :

For example, let us say that I have a character with BBA < 6 and want to take rapid shot :
"Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot."

Or, I am a 4th level fighter with a two-handed sword and I have a 4th summoner in my group buffing me with haste :
"When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon."

From the texts, I understand that in case I decide to perform a full-attack action, I will receive one extra attack

Ok now my problem is that under "full-attack action" one can read :
"If you get more than one attack per round because (...), or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks."

And what if I do not get more than one attacke per round? Can I decide that I use a full-round action to attack with my single attack and will it make it a full-attack action? Because if not, it means that rapid shot can only be used when BBA reaches +6 for example. And same for the haste : it does not give you extra attacks if you do not have access to two attacks already. Am I right?

Thank you in advance for your advices!

[Yora]

If you have one attack, Rapid Shot and Haste give you the option to make two attacks instead. And to make more than one attack, you have to take a full attack action. If you have two attacks, you can make three, and so on.
You don't have to be able to make two attacks to get another one.

[White Direwolf]

Skooma wrote:

Can you choose to make a full-attack action even if you have only one attack per round?

Yes, you can. The key to the answer is in your quote from the rules:

PRD wrote:

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.

This states that you can get more than one attack for various reasons: high BAB, fighting with two weapons, or special reasons. In your examples (rapid shot, haste) those would be the "special reasons". It also says that inorder to use those attacks from rapid shot or hast eyou have to make a full attack which inturn takes a full-round action.

[David_Bross]

A full round attack is a specific action that allows you to make additional attacks.

The text under full-attack is specifically clarifying that you MUST use this action in order to gain the extra attacks from haste, rapid shot, etc, that all mention that you must use the full-attack action to gain them. You can choose to use this action regardless of the number of attacks you have.

[Bart Vervaet]

taking a full attack basically means you do nothing other than attack that round, and there are several reasons why you would want to do that, even with a BAB<6

a monk using flurry of blows is a full attack
someone with rapid shot gets an extra attack while full attacking
someone with two weapon fighting only gets the off hand attack when full attacking

I'm sure there are other examples but I hope this helps you understand the use of full attacking

[Skooma]

White Direwolf wrote:

Skooma wrote:

Can you choose to make a full-attack action even if you have only one attack per round?

Yes, you can. The key to the answer is in your quote from the rules:

PRD wrote:

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.

This states that you can get more than one attack for various reasons: high BAB, fighting with two weapons, or special reasons. In your examples (rapid shot, haste) those would be the "special reasons". It also says that inorder to use those attacks from rapid shot or hast eyou have to make a full attack which inturn takes a full-round action.

Ok that's were people of my group disagree : "when making a full-attack action..." can be seen (semantically, in our french book version) as a prerequisite to receive the extra action of haste or rapid shot. So if this "when making a full-attack action..." is semantically a prerequisite to receive that extra action from haste or rapid shot, the bonus attack given by this effects can not fulfill the prerequisite of course.

And also in the french version, we interpret the full-attack action as "more than one attack" meaning you could not choose to transform a single attack in a full-round one.

But so in english you do not seem to interpret this sentence as a prerequisite... That's great, I will report this to my fellow players ;)

Thank you for your fast answers (hoping I was understandable in this last explanation of our debate :P).

[fffreak9999]

Hi There,

Rapid Shot gives you the ability of a 2nd attack when using a ranged weapon

Rapid Shot wrote:

When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.

When this is combined with haste on a 4th level fighter or even a 5th level fighter before gaining iterative attacks his full attack action.

Basing this on Level 4 Fighter 16 Dexterity his attack modifiers would look like this:

+6/+6/+6 for his full attack action.
Since his rapid shot gives him a -2 on all ranged attacks made that turn
But his haste gives him +1.

Haste grants an additional attack at your highest bonus

Haste wrote:

When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)

Even if you were a level 1 fighter affected by haste it would allow the 2nd attack.

But you must only use it as a full round action, which included your Movement and Standard Action. Meaning if you wanted to make a full round attack action you must use both of them to gain the bonus attacks.

Hope this helps.

[brock, no the other one...]

Skooma wrote:

Ok now my problem is that under "full-attack action" one can read :

"If you get more than one attack per round because (...), or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks."

And what if I do not get more than one attacke per round? Can I decide that I use a full-round action to attack with my single attack and will it make it a full-attack action?

If you can do X, you must use Y to do it, does not mean that you can only do Y if you can do X.

[Skooma]

brock, no the other one... wrote:

If you can do X, you must use Y to do it, does not mean that you can only do Y if you can do X.

Of course you are completely right but the way it is written might sound more like a definition (again, because in the french version, even the name of the full-round attack suggests something like "more-than-one attack").

So, thank you all, now that I have the interpretation of the english text by native speakers, I see the spirit of the rule more clearly :)

[Yora]

In older editions, the description of Rapid Shot was:
"You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat."

This is far less ambigous.

[Osric Stonebrook]

Bart Vervaet wrote:

taking a full attack basically means you do nothing other than attack that round, and there are several reasons why you would want to do that, even with a BAB<6

someone with two weapon fighting only gets the off hand attack when full attacking

I'm confused here. If I have two-weapon fighting, I should be able to engage a full attack action with both my main hand and my off hand right? Not just my off hand. Otherwise, the full-attack action explanation seems off kilter.

[Lathiira]

Yes, if you have two-weapon fighting you can engage that full-attack action with both hands. The number of attacks you gain from using your off-hand is based on how far along you are on that feat tree: one off-hand attack with Two-Weapon Fighting, plus an additional attack for Improved, one more for Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (total of 3 for the off-hand at that point).

[Osric Stonebrook]

Lathiira wrote:

Yes, if you have two-weapon fighting you can engage that full-attack action with both hands. The number of attacks you gain from using your off-hand is based on how far along you are on that feat tree: one off-hand attack with Two-Weapon Fighting, plus an additional attack for Improved, one more for Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (total of 3 for the off-hand at that point).

Thanks for the quick response. So, when a Fighter reaches +6BAB how many attacks can he make provided its a full-attack action?

[Orfamay Quest]

Osric Stonebrook wrote:

Lathiira wrote:

Yes, if you have two-weapon fighting you can engage that full-attack action with both hands. The number of attacks you gain from using your off-hand is based on how far along you are on that feat tree: one off-hand attack with Two-Weapon Fighting, plus an additional attack for Improved, one more for Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (total of 3 for the off-hand at that point).

Thanks for the quick response. So, when a Fighter reaches +6BAB how many attacks can he make provided its a full-attack action?

A fighter with +6 BAB gets two attacks at +6/+1

A fighter with +6 BAB who is using a light weapon in her off hand gets a third attack, but at a substantial penalty, effectively -4 to the attacks with the primary weapon and -8 to the attack with the secondary weapon. So it would be +2/+2/-7 in the best case.

A fighter with +6 BAB and the two weapon fighting feat who is using a light weapon in her off hand reduces the penalties to -2 across the board, so the attacks would be at +4/+4/-1.

[Osric Stonebrook]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Osric Stonebrook wrote:

Lathiira wrote:

Yes, if you have two-weapon fighting you can engage that full-attack action with both hands. The number of attacks you gain from using your off-hand is based on how far along you are on that feat tree: one off-hand attack with Two-Weapon Fighting, plus an additional attack for Improved, one more for Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (total of 3 for the off-hand at that point).

Thanks for the quick response. So, when a Fighter reaches +6BAB how many attacks can he make provided its a full-attack action?

A fighter with +6 BAB gets two attacks at +6/+1

A fighter with +6 BAB who is using a light weapon in her off hand gets a third attack, but at a substantial penalty, effectively -4 to the attacks with the primary weapon and -8 to the attack with the secondary weapon. So it would be +2/+2/-7 in the best case.

A fighter with +6 BAB and the two weapon fighting feat who is using a light weapon in her off hand reduces the penalties to -2 across the board, so the attacks would be at +4/+4/-1.

So, at 6th level a Fighter can only make 3 attacks as a full-attack action? Or four? Thanks for the clarification here. All of you are being really helpful.

[Orfamay Quest]

Osric Stonebrook wrote:

So, at 6th level a Fighter can only make 3 attacks as a full-attack action? Or four? Thanks for the clarification here. All of you are being really helpful.

A vanilla fighter at 6th level gets two attacks. This applies to any weapon combination including two-handed weapons.

If you have no feats, you still can get up to three attacks at 6th level by using an off-hand weapon. And you will really suck with them.

If you have the Two Weapon Fighting feat, you will have three attacks and suck less.
If you have the Improved Two Weapon fighting feat (which you can get at BAB +6) you can get a fourth attack. (And at BAB +11, you can take Greater Two Weapon Fighting which gives you yet another attack.)

The confusing thing is that you don't need the Two Weapon Fighting feat to be able to pick up a dagger in your off hand and swing it wildly. The feat, however, enables you to do it effectively. A first level wizard could wave a pair of daggers around and get two attacks. A 6th level fighter could get three attacks under the same circumstances. A 6th level fighter with TWF will actually be able to hit some of the time with the third attack.

[Osric Stonebrook]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

Osric Stonebrook wrote:

So, at 6th level a Fighter can only make 3 attacks as a full-attack action? Or four? Thanks for the clarification here. All of you are being really helpful.

A vanilla fighter at 6th level gets two attacks. This applies to any weapon combination including two-handed weapons.

If you have no feats, you still can get up to three attacks at 6th level by using an off-hand weapon. And you will really suck with them.

If you have the Two Weapon Fighting feat, you will have three attacks and suck less.
If you have the Improved Two Weapon fighting feat (which you can get at BAB +6) you can get a fourth attack. (And at BAB +11, you can take Greater Two Weapon Fighting which gives you yet another attack.)

The confusing thing is that you don't need the Two Weapon Fighting feat to be able to pick up a dagger in your off hand and swing it wildly. The feat, however, enables you to do it effectively. A first level wizard could wave a pair of daggers around and get two attacks. A 6th level fighter could get three attacks under the same circumstances. A 6th level fighter with TWF will actually be able to hit some of the time with the third attack.

Sounds good so far. I guess my last question is this. Utilizing all the feats you have listed above with a Fighter and having 4 attacks per turn - Would a full attack action look something like:

Main hand
Off hand
Off hand
Off hand

OR

Main hand
Off hand
Main hand
Off hand

Thanks again for the clarification.

[BigJohn42]

Osric Stonebrook wrote:

Sounds good so far. I guess my last question is this. Utilizing all the feats you have listed above with a Fighter and having 4 attacks per turn - Would a full attack action look something like:

Main hand
Off hand
Off hand
Off hand

OR

Main hand
Off hand
Main hand
Off hand

Thanks again for the clarification.

Assuming a 6th level fighter (+6 BAB) with both Two Weapon Fighting and Improved Two Weapon Fighting, but no other attack bonuses (10 STR, no Weapon Focus, etc), the following would be acceptable attack options:

Single Attack:

One attack at +6. Does not require a full-round action (can still take a move action)

Single Weapon, Full Round:

One attack at +6, one attack at +1. Requires a full-round action (cannot take a move action, but can 5' step)

Light Secondary Weapon, Full Round:

Main hand takes one attack at +4, one attack at -1. Secondary weapon takes one attack at +4, one attack at -1. Requires a full-round action (cannot take a move action, but can 5' step)

Two One-Handed Weapons, Full Round:

Main hand takes one attack at +2, one attack at -3. Secondary weapon takes one attack at +2, one attack at -3. Requires a full-round action (cannot take a move action, but can 5' step)

For anything beyond a single attack, with a single weapon, the Full Attack action is required. It ooesn't matter what order you take the attacks in, so long as you're declaring the attack before the roll (no "That's a 20! That's my off-hand second attack!"). Most groups that I've seen roll attacks from Highest to Lowest, Primary hand before Secondary.