Hat of Disguise Greater


Pathfinder Society

4/5

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Is this item (Hat of Disguise greater) from Pathfinder Module: Curse of the Riven Sky legal for PFS play without having the item on a chronicle sheet (assuming you have the fame required to purchase it) ?

4/5

Let me clarify a bit.

The Hat of Disguise, greater is a magical item printed on page 30 in the Pathfinder Module: Curse of the Riven Sky.

This module is a sanctioned module, but is not addressed earlier in the document (actually no modules are, just adventure paths and other books).

I am wondering if this item can be purchased and used in PFS organized play.

Thanks,
David


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It is not PFS-legal, no.

*

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's also crazy broken as it nets you a permanent +2 Str or Dex that stacks with all other stat enhancing items on the cheap.


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Ravingdork wrote:
It's also crazy broken as it nets you a permanent +2 Str or Dex that stacks with all other stat enhancing items on the cheap.

Not to mention darkvision, lowlight vision, scent or swim speed as the situation demands.


Poldaran wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
It's also crazy broken as it nets you a permanent +2 Str or Dex that stacks with all other stat enhancing items on the cheap.
Not to mention darkvision, lowlight vision, scent or swim speed as the situation demands.

Or a Familiar with hands.

*

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
VRMH wrote:
Or a Familiar with hands.

LOL! I can't believe that never occurred to me.


You guys must think that the spell alter self is broken as well.

*

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Nope. It has a short, non-infinite duration and uses up valuable resources (spell slots) any time you use it.

This hat does not.

It's a lot like saying a sword of true striking isn't broken, just because the spell true strike itself isn't. Nothing could be farther from the truth.


So you don't like magic items with infinite durations?


Whatever, I guess the topic has digressed into something other than the question. If it is not PFS legal it is not PFS legal.

I just don't see anything broken about it. Broken is a strong word in Pathfinder and I think you guys are using it rather lightly.

It may be underpriced somewhat. I could go with that.

I just can't go with broken.

And so what if your familiar has hands. Whoopie

*

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Driver 325 yards wrote:
So you don't like magic items with infinite durations?

Depends on the item. Some are more balanced than others.


Quote:
And so what if your familiar has hands. Whoopie

Well... he succeed in one of the three rules to be able to cast from a wand.

The other two being able to speak (raven, improved familiar, ...), and the last having access to either a spell list (one or two improved familiar) or UMD (most of them via their master).


Lets see. Amulet of NA gives you infinite NA. Ring of Protection gives you infinite deflection bonus. Enhancement bonuses to weapons give you infinite bonuses to attack and damage. Belts for Stats give you infinite lasting stat bonuses.

I could go on, but the point is that infinite lasting bonuses granted through items are always better than the limited lasting bonuses you get through the spell.

Therefore, Alter Self and the item Greater Hat of Disguise are no more different than Greater Magic Weapon and a +2 Sword. I could say the same for Cat's Grace and a +4 Belt of Dexterity.

At the end of the day, I can't go with broken. I can go with underpriced given that a +2 belt of dext is 4k and googles of night vision are 12K (i think).

Lowlight vision, swim and scent (I guess it would require a little extra boost for these things that are very situationally useful). So let's say 18K.

However, BROKEN is a term that should be used with care rather than so willy nilly.


Avh wrote:
Quote:
And so what if your familiar has hands. Whoopie

Well... he succeed in one of the three rules to be able to cast from a wand.

The other two being able to speak (raven, improved familiar, ...), and the last having access to either a spell list (one or two improved familiar) or UMD (most of them via their master).

I am not sure what you are saying here. Sounds like a bad cell phone connection.

However, if you point is that you believe that hat of greater disguise will allow a familaiar to cast via a wand (which I doubt greatly without a lot of other investments), then I have two comments.

First, so what? Second, so what? Does a wand casting familiar break the game? Will your adventure come to a crumbling halt because a familiar can cast with a wand?

Let's see (UMD, Skill Focus UMD, high Chr, all companion skill points into UMD, Improved Familiar, $ spent on hat of greater disguise, $ spent on buying wands). If someone is willing to go through all of that to have a familiar that can cast a wand then so be it.

This is far from PUN PUN.


Driver 325 yards wrote:

Lets see. Amulet of NA gives you infinite NA. Ring of Protection gives you infinite deflection bonus. Enhancement bonuses to weapons give you infinite bonuses to attack and damage. Belts for Stats give you infinite lasting stat bonuses.

I could go on, but the point is that infinite lasting bonuses granted through items are always better than the limited lasting bonuses you get through the spell.

Amulet of Natural Armor starts at +1. Barkskin starts at +2.

Enhancement to weapons is capped at +5. True Strike gives you +20.

I disagree. I think that the limited lasting bonus you get from a spell tends to be better than the infinite lasting bonus from magic items. Why? Because the spell uses up your slot for the day, while the item continues to function day to day. Of course the item should (typically) be weaker than the spell.


Tarantula wrote:
Driver 325 yards wrote:

Lets see. Amulet of NA gives you infinite NA. Ring of Protection gives you infinite deflection bonus. Enhancement bonuses to weapons give you infinite bonuses to attack and damage. Belts for Stats give you infinite lasting stat bonuses.

I could go on, but the point is that infinite lasting bonuses granted through items are always better than the limited lasting bonuses you get through the spell.

Amulet of Natural Armor starts at +1. Barkskin starts at +2.

Enhancement to weapons is capped at +5. True Strike gives you +20.

I disagree. I think that the limited lasting bonus you get from a spell tends to be better than the infinite lasting bonus from magic items. Why? Because the spell uses up your slot for the day, while the item continues to function day to day. Of course the item should (typically) be weaker than the spell.

Magic Weapons are not made from true strike, they are made from greater magic weapon, which caps at +5

Second, the items are not weaker than the spell. You do know you can have +5 Amulet of Natural Armor for 25K. Heck, you can have a +3 Amultet of Natural Armor for 9K and I always reach for that before I reach for the Hat of Greater Disguise. And I would do so even if Hat of Greater Disguise sold for 9K.

Hey, I am done with this discussion. I just think you guys use the term broken way too lightly. It seems that that is all anyone does on these forums anymore. They don't like something or think that it is the slightest bit more powerful than the next thing and then you hear that magic phrase. "Such and Such is Broken"


Driver 325 yards wrote:
Avh wrote:
Quote:
And so what if your familiar has hands. Whoopie

Well... he succeed in one of the three rules to be able to cast from a wand.

The other two being able to speak (raven, improved familiar, ...), and the last having access to either a spell list (one or two improved familiar) or UMD (most of them via their master).

I am not sure what you are saying here. Sounds like a bad cell phone connection.

However, if you point is that you believe that hat of greater disguise will allow a familaiar to cast via a wand (which I doubt greatly without a lot of other investments), then I have two comments.

First, so what? Second, so what? Does a wand casting familiar break the game? Will your adventure come to a crumbling halt because a familiar can cast with a wand?

Let's see (UMD, Skill Focus UMD, high Chr, all companion skill points into UMD, Improved Familiar, $ spent on hat of greater disguise, $ spent on buying wands). If someone is willing to go through all of that to have a familiar that can cast a wand then so be it.

This is far from PUN PUN.

This is one of the solution to cast 2 to 3 (with quicken) spells each round for a wizard.

Give your familiar a utility wand, and you'll have the best assets there is.

For example : RAW, a raven familiar speak one language. By using Alter self (as the spell), you can give him hands. By investing some of your immense reserve of skill points in UMD, it will have +1 in UMD by level 3 (level at which you get Alter self) [+3 ranks, -2 CHA].

It means that if you give him a Magic missile wand, he will have 90% of doing nothing (it doesn't change from normal, and the charge is not expanded), 5% of casting a magic missile (great, as it's free except for the charge), 5% of not being able to use the wand for the day (but the charge is not expanded).

At each level, you augment the chance of activating the wand by 5% (and you can give him better wands because you're richer, with no penalty as all wands have the same UMD check). For example, a 10th level wizard, will have a raven familiar without magic items (except for wands) that can use wands 40% each round, fail 55%, and 5% of not being able to cast this wand for the day (but will have access to several wands, if needed).

The hat of disguise, greater is just a mean to access this spell all day for a mere 12000gp (6000gp for someone with Craft Wondrous Item).

(For the new options for familiars in the companion archive, I don't know how it works, so I will consider that book doesn't exist).


Magic weapons are not made from greater magic weapon. All you need is:
"Item Creation Feat Required: Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons)."
+5 Amulet of Nat Armor is 50k, +3 is 18k.

Lets price out this Hat anyway. We're looking at CL3 and Spell Level 2. Continuous effect price is SLxCLx2,000 in gold. Oh, but there is this little superscript 2 there, which states:
"2 If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half."

Alter self is 1min/level. So we have to then double it. 2x3x2,000x2 = 24,000 gold. Not the 12,000 it is listed at. I think whoever created the item missed that little superscript, and forgot to double the price for 1min/level duration.

Now, if you're paying 24,000 (or crafting for 12k) I think the hat is less powerful. Considering you could do a slotless +2 attribute for 8k.

Scarab Sages 1/5

Tarantula wrote:


Now, if you're paying 24,000 (or crafting for 12k) I think the hat is less powerful. Considering you could do a slotless +2 attribute for 8k.

The real advantage is stacking. A +4 belt and hat cost less than a +6 belt. A +6 belt and hat gives a +8 bonus, something not otherwise available.


Quote:

This is one of the solution to cast 2 to 3 (with quicken) spells each round for a wizard.

Give your familiar a utility wand, and you'll have the best assets there is.

For example : RAW, a raven familiar speak one language. By using Alter self (as the spell), you can give him hands. By investing some of your immense reserve of skill points in UMD, it will have +1 in UMD by level 3 (level at which you get Alter self) [+3 ranks, -2 CHA].

It means that if you give him a Magic missile wand, he will have 90% of doing nothing (it doesn't change from normal, and the charge is not expanded), 5% of casting a magic missile (great, as it's free except for the charge), 5% of not being able to use the wand for the day (but the charge is not expanded).

At each level, you augment the chance of activating the wand by 5% (and you can give him better wands because you're richer, with...

I guess I could not resist responding.

Yes, you are right. That is how wands work. However, does a Raven with a 5% chance of casting with a wand scare you? Even a 50% chance?

And when you said "give you familiar a utility wand, and you'll have the BEST ASSETS THERE IS" you really lost me. Overstating just a little maybe. Give me a Cohort that can cast and use wands and whatever else I build them to do. Now that is the best asset.

After all, it is a familiar at the end of the day. If the GM ever wants to kill the thing it is easily dead. I have never seen a familiar (wand bearing or not) break the game.


Tarantula wrote:

Magic weapons are not made from greater magic weapon. All you need is:

"Item Creation Feat Required: Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
Skill Used in Creation: Spellcraft, Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons)."
+5 Amulet of Nat Armor is 50k, +3 is 18k.

Lets price out this Hat anyway. We're looking at CL3 and Spell Level 2. Continuous effect price is SLxCLx2,000 in gold. Oh, but there is this little superscript 2 there, which states:
"2 If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half."

Alter self is 1min/level. So we have to then double it. 2x3x2,000x2 = 24,000 gold. Not the 12,000 it is listed at. I think whoever created the item missed that little superscript, and forgot to double the price for 1min/level duration.

Now, if you're paying 24,000 (or crafting for 12k) I think the hat is less powerful. Considering you could do a slotless +2 attribute for 8k.

Yes, whenever you make an item more expensive it is less powerful.

Further, you are making an argument for the item being underpriced not broken.

Last, sometimes the prices on items are raised or lowered to fit their true value. Don't get so stuck on a formula. It is a guideline to pricing. Funny thing is, I have played many game of Pathfinder with different people and the Hat of Greater Disguise is by far not a top item selected by players. If it is as underpriced as you seem to think, why would this be so?


Artanthos wrote:
Tarantula wrote:


Now, if you're paying 24,000 (or crafting for 12k) I think the hat is less powerful. Considering you could do a slotless +2 attribute for 8k.
The real advantage is stacking. A +4 belt and hat cost less than a +6 belt. A +6 belt and hat gives a +8 bonus, something not otherwise available.

Yes, you have properly explained how stacking works. Often when you stack bonuses of a different types from different items the cost is less than obtaining the bonus from one item.

However, I hope you are not suggesting that it is unconscionable to have an item that gives you a non-enhancement bonus to a stat. Furthermore, it is a quite modest bonus. We are talking a +2 here are we not.

That needs stating again. We are talking a +2 bonus.

*

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Artanthos wrote:
Tarantula wrote:


Now, if you're paying 24,000 (or crafting for 12k) I think the hat is less powerful. Considering you could do a slotless +2 attribute for 8k.
The real advantage is stacking. A +4 belt and hat cost less than a +6 belt. A +6 belt and hat gives a +8 bonus, something not otherwise available.

Ding ding ding! This is exactly the problem.

Driver 325 yards wrote:


Yes, whenever you make an item more expensive it is less powerful.

Further, you are making an argument for the item being underpriced not broken.

Last, sometimes the prices on items are raised or lowered to fit their true value. Don't get so stuck on a formula. It is a guideline to pricing. Funny thing is, I have played many game of Pathfinder with different people and the Hat of Greater Disguise is by far not a top item selected by players. If it is as underpriced as you seem to think, why would this be so?

Fair enough. Allow me to rephrase: This item is unbalanced.

It is unlikely to break the game, but it will give the character using it an unfair advantage (as shown by Artanthos above). It also makes it so everyone with the slots to spare will want to go with the obviously better hat2 and belt4 over the belt6. That destroys verisimilitude for some as now everyone has magic shapechanging hats when they otherwise wouldn't have.

At best, you could argue "it's balanced because anyone can get one" in which case, it's straight up power creep.

There's a multitude of reasons for not liking its existence.


Ravingdork wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
Tarantula wrote:


Now, if you're paying 24,000 (or crafting for 12k) I think the hat is less powerful. Considering you could do a slotless +2 attribute for 8k.
The real advantage is stacking. A +4 belt and hat cost less than a +6 belt. A +6 belt and hat gives a +8 bonus, something not otherwise available.

Ding ding ding! This is exactly the problem.

Driver 325 yards wrote:


Yes, whenever you make an item more expensive it is less powerful.

Further, you are making an argument for the item being underpriced not broken.

Last, sometimes the prices on items are raised or lowered to fit their true value. Don't get so stuck on a formula. It is a guideline to pricing. Funny thing is, I have played many game of Pathfinder with different people and the Hat of Greater Disguise is by far not a top item selected by players. If it is as underpriced as you seem to think, why would this be so?

Fair enough. Allow me to rephrase: This item is unbalanced.

It is unlikely to break the game, but it will give the character using it an unfair advantage not readily available to most (as shown by Artanthos above). It also makes it so everyone with the slots to spare will want to go with the obviously better hat2 and belt4 over the belt6.

And with that, I can understand your position. It also leads me to say that PFS should not have banned the item, they should have just given it a different price and allowed it.

4/5

1) It is legal. It's on the Chronicle Sheet:

Curse of the Riven Sky:
Greater hat of disguise (12,000 gp; functions as a hat of disguise, this garment allows the bearer to cast alter self at will at CL 3rd)

2) It's not permanent. It lasts for 3 minutes at a time. Standard action to activate.

3) It doesn't stack (or even work) with effects like Enlarge Person.

4) If you use it less than 125 times, it's not really any better than 2.5 wands of Alter Self, other than not needing UMD to trigger it or an action to draw the wand.

It's a nice item. I don't think it's overpowered.

EDIT:
2.67 wands of Alter Self. Unless you wanted to get a wand of Disguise Self to go with it.

EDIT EDIT:
Not legal without the sheet, obviously, but still legal.


Driver 325 yards wrote:
Quote:

This is one of the solution to cast 2 to 3 (with quicken) spells each round for a wizard.

Give your familiar a utility wand, and you'll have the best assets there is.

For example : RAW, a raven familiar speak one language. By using Alter self (as the spell), you can give him hands. By investing some of your immense reserve of skill points in UMD, it will have +1 in UMD by level 3 (level at which you get Alter self) [+3 ranks, -2 CHA].

It means that if you give him a Magic missile wand, he will have 90% of doing nothing (it doesn't change from normal, and the charge is not expanded), 5% of casting a magic missile (great, as it's free except for the charge), 5% of not being able to use the wand for the day (but the charge is not expanded).

At each level, you augment the chance of activating the wand by 5% (and you can give him better wands because you're richer, with...

I guess I could not resist responding.

Yes, you are right. That is how wands work. However, does a Raven with a 5% chance of casting with a wand scare you? Even a 50% chance?

And when you said "give you familiar a utility wand, and you'll have the BEST ASSETS THERE IS" you really lost me. Overstating just a little maybe. Give me a Cohort that can cast and use wands and whatever else I build them to do. Now that is the best asset.

After all, it is a familiar at the end of the day. If the GM ever wants to kill the thing it is easily dead. I have never seen a familiar (wand bearing or not) break the game.

Because the familiar didn't cost anything to the wizard besides a few skill points (which can still be useful for your wizard, the day the cleric and rogue are dying) and pocket money ?

I mean, I didn't propose to rewrite the familiar, equip it with dozens of items and make it uber wizard. I didn't take feat(s), nor spend a lot of money here. It's just standard familiar, and by level 3, you can have 1 free spell every 20 rounds (that represents maybe 40 gp before passing from level 3 to 4, which improve the capability of the familiar).

With a better familiar (improved familiar), you don't need Alter self, and start with better (and sometimes MUCH better) charisma. For example, the brownie start with 17 CHA, and that means +5 UMD over the raver for the same level. This familiar can also teleport himself and make mirror image, it flies and is tiny (for full of bonus if you use ray spells for your wand(s)).

The arbiter is almost invulnerable, flies, is tiny, is immune to pretty much anything, speak every languages and cast commune once per week. Adding the fact that at 7th level he could have +9 UMD, you have a familiar that can cast a spell every two rounds. That's awesome, all included for the spending of one feat.

*

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
redward wrote:
It's not permanent. It lasts for 3 minutes at a time. Standard action to activate.

Like the hat of disguise or the ring of invisibility, there is no duration limitation. Only your third sentence is correct.

4/5

I don't see how it could be legal with the chronicle sheet and illegal without. See all of the items from season 0 we can only use during the sceinario because we can not purchase them.

I see this as a reasonable item for 12000gp, along the same lines that a decoy ring is reasonable, a spellstoring weapon is reasonable, etc. Alter self can't give you a fly speed, or special attacks, so while you're slightly stepping on druid's toes, it isn't replicating wildshape (something they're very clear on items not being able to do in PFS, replicate class features).

I realize that I might be splitting hairs but it would be nice for a clarification as to legality means, as the additional resources guide spells out everything NOT on there is illegal, but then lists all these modules as legal, without mentioning specifics as it does for almost all resources.


the duration comes from the item's CL. Alter self at CL 3 = 3 minutes. You can activate it any number of time per day, but the duration is still the same.

4/5

Ravingdork wrote:
redward wrote:
It's not permanent. It lasts for 3 minutes at a time. Standard action to activate.
Like the hat of disguise or the ring of invisibility, there is no duration limitation. Only your third sentence is correct.

The wording of the Greater Hat of Disguise is different on the chronicle sheet:

Greater Hat of Disguise (Module):
Like a hat of disguise, this garment allows its wearer to alter
her appearance. It functions as an alter self spell (as opposed to disguise self). The hat becomes a part of the disguise and can be a hat, a helmet, a headscarf, and so forth.

Greater Hat of Disguise (Chronicle):
Greater hat of disguise (12,000 gp; functions as a hat of disguise, this garment allows the bearer to cast alter self at will at CL 3rd)

The latter specifies casting the spell at CL 3rd.

4/5

David_Bross wrote:
I don't see how it could be legal with the chronicle sheet and illegal without. See all of the items from season 0 we can only use during the sceinario because we can not purchase them.

An item isn't legal unless it comes from an allowed source (and is not specifically disallowed for PFS).

The exception is anything that you find on a chronicle sheet. I believe there may be some items on Season 0 chronicle sheets that are not legal because they were either incorrect or from the 3.5 ruleset.

In theory, anything you encounter in a scenario that is not always available should show up on the chronicle sheet. Some things do slip through the cracks.

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