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Ok, so here is an idea for a home brew base class buff to the rogue class. The purpose behind it is to address some of the main issues that people are having with the class, ie: MADness, poor combat performance (to hit, and dmg), saves, lower comparative power lvl, and so forth. Admittantly, MADness is still a bit of an issue, but I keyed most of these abilities off of int so that each individual rogue can keep individual flavor like str vs dex, ranged vs melee, and the like. So without further ado, and please forgive some of the wording and phrasing...
Style Paths: at lvl 3, a rogue can choose a style path to pursue. Each style has 3 tries of abilities that progress at lvl 3, 7, and 11. At lvl 11 the rogue can choose an additional style path that progresses at lvl 11, 15, and 19. The style paths are as follows:
@7: 2 1st lvl spell likes usable = to int mod/day
@11: spell strike as the magus class feature
@7: add 1/2 lvl to dmg with light weapons and 1h piercing weapons
@11: telling blow- when a rogue confirms a crit, she adds SA dmg. If she already would get SA, she adds 1d6 on that crit.
@7: rage power
@11: rage power
@7: add 1d6 to any roll as a swift action = to int mod/day
@11: you automatically crit on a successful attack roll 1/ day.
@7: alter self at will
@11: vexing flanker- the rogue is considered to be flanking any target she threatens that is threatened by at least 1 other ally
@7: poison expert- reduce the time to apply poison to a weapon down to a swift action
@11: poison bomb as alchemist class feature useable = to int mod/day
@7: monster lore as inquisitor class feature keyed off of int
@11: inquisitors bane- as inquisitor class feature useable = to 1/2 lvl
@7: the rogue gains the imp feint feat even if she doesn't meet the pre reqs
@11: glibness spell like = to int mod/day
@7: shadow jump (40ft) as the shadowdancer class feature
@11: shadow jump (80ft), summon shadow as the shadowdancer class feature
@7: mettle- like evasion, but for fort and will saves
@11: an additional +2 luck bonus to fort and will
I welcome all feedback, tweak ideas, and additions. Please let me know if anything needs clarification. Thanks in advance!
A 3/6/9 progression would be better, especially if you're looking to PRC out.
Also, I'm sad to see the Arcanist doesn't qualify for Arcane Trickster by himself.
I want to keep the progression because it is an even metered pace that lets lvl 11 act as the Segway into the second style.
I didn't want to step on too many toes with any one style path, just augment any dips multiclassing PrCs or existing rogue talents.
Here is a few more for you.
@7: you do not provoke AoO for firing while threatened
@11: targets engaged in melee are considered flanked by your ranged attacks with boxes and xbows.
@7: combat feat, fighter lvl is = to rogue lvl -3 to qualify for combat feats
@11: weapon training
Possible archetype: Style master- choose 2 styles to advance in at lvl 3. Gives up trap sense, both uncanny dodges, and advanced talents.
I really like this option as a balancing factor, as opposed to the Guile Points that i'm currently going with.
Personally I'd rather have a more concise list (ninja rogue, dabbler rogue, thief, combat rogue, party face) but I think this is a great idea as a whole. I have to get other homebrew stuff in order for my next game first but I'll definitely work on my own version and post it in the near future.
Great! Drop a link here when you are done.
I had considered using a guile pool as well (that does not stack with monks ki pool), adding full access to to ninja tricks, and banning the ninja altogether. I think that both additions will go a long way to balancing the rogue in relation to the other classes power lvls.
I'm having a hard time reconciling a guile pool with ki. I feel like both would grant a totally different set of abilities, which made combining ninja and rogue difficult.
@7: a style feat. You do not need to meet the pre req for it.
@11: another style feat, unarmed strike is considered magic for overcoming DR
@7: defensive stance- when wielding a reach weapon, the rogue gains a +2 shield bonus to her AC. This stacks with the shield of swings feat.
@11: mobile Pikeman: when making a full attack with a spear or polearm, the rogue can move up to 10ft at anytime during their turn without provoking an AoO.
I kinda having the rouge take bake the jack of all trades roll, which is what this accomplishes. The beauty of this is, I could see several rouges in one party that can function, But there is still plenty reason to play another class. I do think the 3 level dip potential should be explored to make sure it's balanced. I say leave the ninja separate, to represent a rouge who is more focused on a given role.
You mean changing the progression to 3,6,9, and 12,15,18? Or do you think they are weak/ OP? Some of the style paths are intentionally stronger because they don't mesh with certain dips, mcs, or PrCs. While others may not be as mechanically strong, but still add flavor and potential to interact.
I'm glad you like the "jack of all trades" feel. I always believed that the rogue should be able to use the disguise skill and some class features to be able to pass as a different class altogether.
Looks good. Definitely gives Rogue something unique again, and gives a good boost to power and utility as well, depending on the path chosen.
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If I can be frank, I think you're doing something else to the rogue other than "fixing it." I think you're just adding some style trees to them, and not really addressing the actual problems. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what you're doing--and it is technically a buff because it adds abilities the Rogue lacked before--it's just insufficient, I think.
The special abilities are of wildly different power levels, too. Just take a look at the level 3 abilities:
Int to AC, saves, or attack rolls is one thing (and very powerful, might I add without any restrictions like armor or weapon choice or whatever), and then on the other end of the spectrum, you get weak junk like +2 to Fort and Will or Poison use and int to saves vs. poison.
If you have at least +2 Int, Int to saves is better because it gets all three saves and stacks with luck bonuses. And Poison use is super weak--you only have a 5% chance to expose yourself to poison you use anyway, and I don't think 5% less chance to poison yourself is comparable to +int to hit.
Edit: Holy crap, I just noticed your later additions. Dex to bow damage!? Rogue 3 just became the new required archer dip. Way too strong.
HiPS seems awesome, but first: is it the Shadow Dancer version of HiPS or the Rogue version? Because it's downright crappy as the Rogue talent, while the Shadowdancer version is only a little bit better than the feat Hellcat Stealth (no -10, but you do need dim light, someone can Hellcat Stealth in an open field at noon).
Dex to damage as a rogue ability just confuses the issue. It's partially a feat and it is flat out a weapon enchant. If you think it's an ok thing to give to PCs, then it should be a general feat, not a Rogue specific thing. And if it's not ok for PCs, then it shouldn't be a Rogue thing, either.
Rerolling as a swift action sounds good, but then you have to realize that you can only do that on your own turn (since you can't take swift actions when it isn't your turn). That means you can't use it on saves, for example, which are a big thing you'd want to re-roll and a big area Rogues are lacking.
So, we're already looking at wildly different power levels between the styles, and that's not even taking the other tiers into account.
If you want to fix the Rogue, you need to address the following core issue that is the root of all that is wrong with them:
Rogues are the "skill class," but skills in 3rd edition (and even moreso in Pathfinder) are not useful enough to build a class around.
I like the idea of a Rogue talent that grants a Bonded object.
Also, if there was an ability that mimicked something like Fabricate, but maybe Supernatural or Extraordinary, it would give the Rogue a "MacGyver" feel.
That, in it's self, would make me play a Rogue.
Throw something together, this is a team sport. I'm open to all ideas. Lord Twig has some excellent ideas for some rogue talents and class features as well. I am hoping he will stop by to weigh in sometime soon as well.
Thanks for all the feedback everyone!
@mplindustries: thanks for your insight, I admit that I am kinda out here alone on some of this stuff so I know some things are out of whack.
As far as the archer path goes, the zen archer gets alot better static to hit/ dmg buffs to his archery, so I don't think it is TOO off, but maybe the 3 and 7 abilities need to be switched.
Dex to dmg is offered to my pcs through imp finesse, something I now offer rogues for free. Not too OP for my games.
Poison use also gives a bump to saves vs poison, and with swift poisoner, you are applying poison as a swift action, which is one complaint I have seen from alot of folks. I personally hate poison mechanics anyway. Maybe I should let them add int mod to save dcs or something.
I know that some paths are mechanically stronger than others, but I think that even the weaker ones have a place with pcs that are more RP focused.
I totally meant to make those rerolls an immediate action! Thanks for that catch. And as far as HiPS is concerned I was thinking of the shadowdancer version, but everything is up for tweaking if you have suggestions.
As far as the core problem that you are referring to: I agree, but I am looking to get around skill monkeying being there one main role by giving some great flavor options to the base class. In this case, it's not about being the best at a handful of skills, it's about being good at a bucket full of skills so you always have a little something for any situation.
Thanks again for your critique, I'm not sure if I directly addressed all (or any of your issues for that matter), but I certainly want to try. Any tweaks or additions you have are more than welcome!
I'm having a hard time reconciling a guile pool with ki. I feel like both would grant a totally different set of abilities, which made combining ninja and rogue difficult.
We're (my group) experimenting with the grit converted to guile mechanic at the moment. We use neither guns, nor gunslingers, but the mechanics seem to be quite interesting when adapted to the rogue class:
Critical Hit: Each time the rogue confirms a critical hit with an attack while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 guile point. Confirming a critical hit on a helpless or unaware creature or on a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the rogue’s character level does not restore guile.
Killing Blow: When the rogue reduces a creature to 0 or fewer hit points with an attack while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 guile point. Destroying an unattended object, reducing a helpless or unaware creature to 0 or fewer hit points, or reducing a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the rogue’s character level to 0 or fewer hit points does not restore any guile.
Deadly Precision (Ex) When the rogue hits a target with a one-handed or light melee weapon, she can spend 1 guile point to deal 1d6 points of extra damage on a hit. If she misses with the attack, she grazes the target, dealing half the extra damage anyway. She must choose to spend the guile point before she makes the attack roll. This is precision damage and is not multiplied if the attack is a critical hit. This precision damage is equal to one-half her total sneak attack dice. This precision damage not stack with sneak attack. but does stack with other forms of precision damage.
Guile is gained at first level. Deadly Precision is directly incorporated into the sneak attack text - this was a quick copy and past with edit from PFSRD20. We've been keeping the changes to a minimum to see how it alters the performance of the rogue and deadly precision seems like just the mechanic to make sneak attack less sucktastic.
A few "deeds" have been converted into talents, as well as several borrowed from other sources. We don't combine the Ki ninja material; it's exclusively for the ninja.
The way I see it, ninja was a half assed attempt to bring rogues back in line with the power lvl bell curve. I want to make the "ki pool" and ninja tricks standardized for the rogue base class, and relegate ninja to an archetype that trades weapon prof, trapfinding, evasion and trap sense for the other standard ninja class features. Thus, rogues with the ninja archetype can use style paths as well. Two birds, one stone.
The way I see it, ninja was a half assed attempt to bring rogues back in line with the power lvl bell curve. I want to make the "ki pool" and ninja tricks standardized for the rogue base class, and relegate ninja to an archetype that trades weapon prof, trapfinding, evasion and trap sense for the other standard ninja class features. Thus, rogues with the ninja archetype can use style paths as well. Two birds, one stone.
Alternatively, you could eliminate the Ninja and grant an "Assassin Style" that grants the ninja's abilities. They'd Get No Trace and Poison Use, plus something else to give it the final push. Light Steps and the Ki Pool can be rogue talents (one of them already is, albeit to a lesser degree).
I'm having a hard time reconciling a guile pool with ki. I feel like both would grant a totally different set of abilities, which made combining ninja and rogue difficult.We're (my group) experimenting with the grit converted to guile mechanic at the moment. We use neither guns, nor gunslingers, but the mechanics seem to be quite interesting when adapted to the rogue class:
** spoiler omitted **...
That's a better approach than what I was going for, but I think this "style" approach would be more in line with how I see rogues. Personally I love the UMD "fake wizard" type of rogue, which could be a useful niche the rogue could be better adapted to than other classes.
I think it's really all about flavor. The ninja needs to be assimilated back into the rogue. They are both weak options by themselves, and even together, they are nothing too special. Combine them and add a little something extra and you are cooking with gas. I may be a bit partial, but I think these style paths are that something extra ;)
Rogue being able to vanish and attune their senses to get a limited version of dark vision, tossing out extra thrown weapons, hitting people where it hurts and making them lose a point or two of str or dex... All the ninja tricks are things that a standard rogue with proper training should be able todo.
The no trace, light steps, and exotic weapons sounds more in line with an archetype than an alternate base class. It's just a shame that the ninjas tricks and ki pool came about too late to make it into the base rogue when it was written.
The root of the problem is that no one but the players want to admit that paizo made a mistake when they didn't check the relative power lvl against the other classes. Instead of releasing an errata, we got another half baked "alternate base class" to try to cover up the failure of the base rogue... And now players are left to add patches, write their own base class, or ignore the class altogether for some bastardized archetype of another class.
Bottom line, the theif/rogue/ whatever you want to call it is a staple of the fantasy genre. Pathfinder has made it obsolete or worse... Made it no better than an archetype of another class... For shame...
[...]I think this "style" approach would be more in line with how I see rogues. Personally I love the UMD "fake wizard" type of rogue, which could be a useful niche the rogue could be better adapted to than other classes.
I agree. I'm looking forward to seeing how it turns out.
Any suggestions for balancing what I have so far? Maybe adding a little beef to some of the weaker paths, water down some of the OP ones.
Any suggestions for some new ones, or ideas for archetypes? I was thinking of an archetype that lets you use cha or wis instead of int.
I also think it's an issue that some of these invalidate certain prestige classes or archetypes, either granting them abilities from those classes straight-up or making them unnecessary.
I think I'm with mplindustries. These aren't balanced against each other and don't really address things very well.
Arcanist:
** spoiler omitted **Blade:
** spoiler omitted **Bruiser:
** spoiler omitted **Fortunate:
** spoiler omitted **Infiltrator:
** spoiler omitted **Poisoner:
** spoiler omitted **Scourge:
** spoiler omitted **Scoundrel:
** spoiler omitted **...
Wow, now that's a great critique! Thanks for your input and candor. There are a few things I disagree with, but by and large, I am picking up what you are laying down here. I will think on it and come back.
Good stuff!
I finally got some time to check these out and comment on them... Let's see...
Well, first off, i'd give them a 3 -> 6 -> 9 progression, seems more natural and allows the Rogue to msater 2 different styles.
Second, I can see why you are basing so many abilities on Int, but this makes Rogues' MADness even worse.
Here is my idea: Give it Poison Resistance equal to Rogue level (to compensate for the poor Fort save), the ability to use a unique "Rogue Poison" with Fort DC equal to 10 + 1/2 Rogue Level + Int and the ability to apply it as swift actions, and finally at last, Poison Immunity and add a 2nd effect to its poison. Give it a few possible choices of Poison effect, like Sleep, HP damage, Str/Dex damage, etc...
Well, first off, i'd give them a 3 -> 6 -> 9 progression, seems more natural and allows the Rogue to msater 2 different styles.
Second, I can see why you are basing so many abilities on Int, but this makes Rogues' MADness even worse.
[spoiler=Arcanist]: This one is interesting. Adding the familiar was a nice touch,as it makes this style mroe than just a few SLA per day.
Here is my idea: Give it Poison Resistance equal to Rogue level (to compensate for the poor Fort save), the ability to use a unique "Rogue Poison" with Fort DC equal to 10 + 1/2 Rogue Level + Int and the ability to apply it as swift actions, and finally at last, Poison Immunity and add a 2nd effect to its poison. Give it a few possible choices of Poison effect, like Sleep, HP damage, Str/Dex damage, etc...
That's all for now. I'll check the other styles and comment on them later.
Ok, great stuff! Reconstruction mode... Go!
Overall I think we will go ahead with the 3,6,9 and 12,15,18 progression.
Arcanist: @3- 1/2 lvl to knowledge: arcana, spellcraft, and UMD. Read and detect magic at will
@6- arcane bond/ familiar and swift activation (activate scrolls, wands, and staves as a move action.
@9- swift activation (activate as a swift action now), and caster lvl = 1/2 rogue lvl for determining the activation of scrolls, wands, and staves.
*note: this will add to arcane options, and not take away from the minor and major magic talents.
Archer: swap the lvl "9" and lvl 3 abilities and done! Hope to see alot more rogue based arcane archers in my games!
Blade: @3- int to hit with light weapons, and 1h piercing or slashing weapons (sap masters rejoice!)
@6- int to AC
@9- add 1/2 lvl to dmg with the weapons from lvl 3,s ability. (Grab a falcata and go to work!)
Bruiser: gone. I wanted to throw something out there for my barb/ rogue multiclassers, but I am not to proud to chalk this up to a fail.
Fortunate: immediate action on the reroll, and the lvl 9 ability will be to force a reroll for ally or enemy. Still open to suggestions here.
Infiltrator: still mulling this one over.
Poisoner: @3- poison use and add 1/2 lvl to save dcs. Hopefully that will add some viability to poisons
Scourge: I was really hoping that my watered down inquisitor would be a bit more welcome. Not quite ready to give up on it, so still open for discussion.
Scoundrel: @3- 1/2 lvl to bluff, disguise, and sense motive. Free Imp feint
@6- imp weapon finesse
@9- vexing flanker
Shadow: @3- dark vision +30ft
@6- HiPS
@9- stealth works against blind sense, tremor sense,
Superstitious: @3- int to saves
@6- mettle
@9- When hitting an opponent casting a spell either as an AoO, a readied action, or during your turn against a spell with a full round casting time, you may apply sneak attack damage.
Arsenal: same
Pikeman: out (shame too, because I like polearm rogues!)
Thanks for all the wonderful and harsh feedback. Hope we can fine tune it some more and come up with some new stuff as well.
Like the improvements alot, though I wanna make sure of something. This is compatible with all archetypes correct?
Yes. It is 100% comparable as it doesn't change ANY of the base class features... However, I made a tweak to the fighters bravery feature and now it gives a morale bonus to will saves, and I was thinking of making trap sense a competence bonus to fort and will. That change would affect some archetypes. Furthermore, the addition of the ninja's "ki pool" and tricks to the base rogue is also UNaffected by archetypes.
If you make a google doc i can print off this for my players to try. currently we have a level 2 rouge, so nows a good time ti implement it.
I do everything from my phone, and have little to no xp with google docs. Lvl 2 is the beginning of changes though. Give him a ki pool based off of whatever mental stat you want, and at lvl 3 give him some style options based off the "ki" stat for a less MADened roguey. Good luck with it, and let me know how it play tests for you.
I do everything from my phone, and have little to no xp with google docs. Lvl 2 is the beginning of changes though. Give him a ki pool based off of whatever mental stat you want, and at lvl 3 give him some style options based off the "ki" stat for a less MADened roguey. Good luck with it, and let me know how it play tests for you.
totally making a google doc for you now. Ill get you editing power, so if you happen to be near a computer it'll be there for you.
so both infiltrator and scoundrel having vexing flanker as a 9th ability? or is that gonna be removed from iniltrator.
Yes for now, but the infiltrator is still something I'm tinkering with. I kinda split it up between the scoundrel and the superstitious style paths though.
also can you explain weapon training for armory a little bit better? I was thinking you could change it to "gains a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with a weapon group of their choice, this bonus increases by +1 at level 12 and an additional +1 every four levels thereafter". essentially it's the same as the fighters but it's better defined as a single ability, rather than 4.
I think a flat +2 hit and dmg is fine if not a bit much. I don't want to take too much away from the fighter class. There are always gloves of dueling.
I think a flat +2 hit and dmg is fine if not a bit much. I don't want to take too much away from the fighter class. There are always gloves of dueling.
then that will be put in the finshed doc.
Great, that's awesome. I'll put the whole thing together with class progression to show the added ki pool, ninja tricks, and trap sense change. Hopefully the whole package will be enough to bring the rogue back in line with the power curve, while keeping it unique and flavorful in and of itself.
Here is one based off of FFVI: Shadow (ninja) and Interceptor (animal companion). Don't have a name for the style yet, but here it is.
@3- animal companion from ranger list.
@6- teamwork feat that is shared with your animal companion
@9- another teamwork feat.
An animal companion can be pretty powerful, so I went with teamwork feats as the follow up because they are kinda, meh. What do you think?
Any other ideas?
Here is one based off of FFVI: Shadow (ninja) and Interceptor (animal companion). Don't have a name for the style yet, but here it is.
@3- animal companion from ranger list.
@6- teamwork feat that is shared with your animal companion
@9- another teamwork feat.An animal companion can be pretty powerful, so I went with teamwork feats as the follow up because they are kinda, meh. What do you think?
I called it the Handler
here is the google doc, link
Niceness! Thanks for putting that together.
I'm a little late to the party, but better late than never I guess...
It looks like a lot of great work has already been done, but I have a suggestion that would require a bit of a retooling of everything. I like the idea of being able to pick two different styles to make your rogue more distinct, but it seems odd that you would have to finish one focus completely before picking a second. Even going with the 3/6/9, then 12/15/18 method means that you don't get to pick your second path until 12th level.
Wouldn't it be more interesting to go 3/9/15 and 6/12/18? I understand that this would mean it would take longer to get to the "capstone" abilities, but since the second and third abilities of each style would only be available at higher levels it means they can also be made more powerful without being unbalancing. As it is you are getting a 3rd level ability at 12th level, and there is just no way it will compare to what other classes are getting at 12th level.
Byrdology mentioned my own thread earlier and for the record, here it is. It deals more directly with the perceived (by me at least) deficiencies of the rogue class.
My fix includes a few Rogueish combat styles (like a Ranger, but only three feats at 4, 10 and 14) and double SA dice on a standard action. It gives the right kind of "bump", and also mitigates the full-attack-for-maximum-damage addiction.
Lord Twig, thanks for showing. There is nothing wrong with fashionable tardiness ;)
I like your idea, and I could certainly see the appeal of running two styles at the same time; but I didn't want to reach too far with my additions. I am already adding the ninjas ki pool and tricks into the base rogue, and making trap sense provide a flat "competence" bonus to saves. And I am tinkering with a "dual style" rogue that lets a character advance two styles at the first iteration in leiu of trap sense, imp uncanny dodge and advanced talents. I see the latter being a big hit with short campaigns and 10 lvl multiclassers.
Any other thoughts? Especially on a dual style archetype...
Reduction in selectable rogue talents as well as sneak attack?
Edit: in regards to the archetype, though duel is probably not word id use for the archetype, something like Talented, or Talent Focused.
How about danger sense, UCD (@4th, not 8), and advanced talents?
Shameless plug, but Rogue Glory's got a whole bunch of stuff to help re-balance the rogue, including the inclusion of a Guile Pool and an Ambush ability, as well as a reworking of the entire Stealth and Trap mechanics.
Something to consider, it all depends on what levels the second style lies.
@Adammeyers, i have heard good things about that.