Goblin Squad Member
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I started thinking. I'm a fan of the second edition D&D. A combat scenario I would like to see in PFO:
A group of heroes is fighting a dragon. Dragon swoops on hero group over and over again, not landing, breaths fire/acid etc, rummages the adventures with hind legs, crushes a hero under front legs, grabs him, takes flight and bites his head off.
The idea came from the saving throws and I started wondering what kind of reflex saving throw or an evasive maneuver a character would have to do to avoid being grabbed by a dragon. Could there be a possibility a character could save himself by striking the dragon's leg while being grabbed, so that the dragon would have to release the character. The character would obviously take falling damage, if he would fall a harmful distance. Would a wooden staff be able to hurt the dragon enough for him to release the adventurer or would a sword or a dagger be needed.
This kind of scenario is something I'd like to see in PFO. And I'm very interested in the saving throw/evasive maneuver to avoid a dragon's grab and how it will be implemented in PFO. Will there be saving throws and will they directly represent an attribute(strength, dexterity etc) or will saving throws come from slotted skills...?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I belive in the past, they'd planned to use stat-based static resistances, rather than randomized saving throws. So rather than a 16 dex giving you a +10 to you dexterity saving through, you would simply have a 4% resistance to dex-targeting effects. That was an old statement though, and the nature of stats has changed since then. So I'm not sure we have any real info on what the current design for this sort of thing looks like.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do like the idea of hero dodges, life saving grabs, miraculous jumps across a chasm, the occasional resistance to poison, etc... Eliminating those and making something a base percent seems a bit of a copout to me. The math becomes easier for the developer and programmer, but the predictability would be discouraging. I want the "Hero Save" to be possible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yep, I'm kind weighting two possibilities which neither might be implemented. An evasive maneuver made by the player himself or a saving throw reflecting character skills/slotted skills. Rogues have a good dexterity, clerics can resist mind affecting effects etc
I would really much like to see these kinds of one shot attacks from for example dragons or a beholder turning someone into stone in which the character profession really matters whether you're going to survive. Baldur's Gate style :)
In some mmos there's a warning that you have to turn your back so that you're not gonna get blind etc. I'm probably not that much into that kind gameplay.
I guess there are no beholders in Pathfinder but anyway...
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Goblin Squad Member
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The math becomes easier for the developer and programmer, but the predictability would be discouraging. I want the "Hero Save" to be possible.
I think this is a case where the change in perspective from tabletop to MMO is key. It's great for a "Hero Save" on the tabletop because the events that might initiate the save are fairly rare. Once you get into an MMO, these events will occur nearly constantly. The "Hero Save" is no longer a cool, rare event; instead, it's simply factored into the mathematical analysis of survivability.
To help understand this, I recommend you try to define the game mechanics that you would use to implement a "Hero Save". Then follow Ryan's advice:
So when you're suggesting an idea, do these things first:
1: How will this work if 50 people have to all do it in series or in parallel?
2: How would a smart player who wanted to abuse this rule exploit it to cause someone else pain?
3: What kind of behavior would naturally emerge in a world where your rule was implemented - what's the effect of your cause?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, to revise my previous statement, they are treating it as a static defense, the same as they are treating armor. Each save will be targeting by attacks (So you have Attack vs Will/Reflex/Fortitude).
Saves/Defense: Player characters can purchase Fortitude, Reflex, and Will up to +150 before buffs (and gain Base Defense from armor, see below). Saves are targeted by attacks, rather than rolled, and most physical attacks target Reflex (since armor provides resistance, there's no need for a different score to represent touch armor class as in tabletop).
I do like the idea of hero dodges, life saving grabs, miraculous jumps across a chasm, the occasional resistance to poison, etc... Eliminating those and making something a base percent seems a bit of a copout to me. The math becomes easier for the developer and programmer, but the predictability would be discouraging. I want the "Hero Save" to be possible.That predictability is actually a goal of the system.
•By removing both "you miss and do no damage" and "you crit and do double damage" from the system, we keep damage within a predictable range. A run of bad luck can only reduce your damage, not eliminate it, and a streak of good luck cannot crit the target into the dirt without giving them a chance to respond. If your hit points are dropping faster than your opponent's, you can't rely on luck to save you: change your tactics to regain the upper hand, or try to flee while you have the chance.
The merits of this system were discussed heavily in the Murder by Numbers discussion thread.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So with mind affecting spells it's probably the duration of the effect that changes with will saves. The system sounds good, but it doesn't allow a character to avoid a one shotting dragon.
I guess my main concern is that, after 2,5 years do all characters that have played from the beginning have all maxed their saving throws or can they be maxed at some point. If so that's a bummer and a big minus from me. Uniformity in this matter is not a good idea, there should be a variety according to choices the character makes concerning saving throws to bring flavor to gameplay.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So with mind affecting spells it's probably the duration of the effect that changes with will saves. The system sounds good, but it doesn't allow a character to avoid a one shotting dragon.
I guess my main concern is that, after 2,5 years do all characters that have played from the beginning have all maxed their saving throws or can they be maxed at some point. If so that's a bummer and a big minus from me. Uniformity in this matter is not a good idea, there should be a variety according to choices the character makes concerning saving throws to bring flavor to gameplay.
In order to MAX ALL saves, I'd think that you would need to max all professions, which at just the 11 core classes + 3 npc classes would take over 17 years. If you include non-core classes it will jump to 25-30 years. If someone plays the game for that long, they deserve to be a super-hero.
At 2.5 years you may have mastered a single role, or dabbled in several. That will give you very good saves, but you wont be saving vs everything, especially if you are not wearing all tier 3 gear. If you are wearing all T3 gear, then most of it wont be threaded.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So with mind affecting spells it's probably the duration of the effect that changes with will saves. The system sounds good, but it doesn't allow a character to avoid a one shotting dragon.
I guess my main concern is that, after 2,5 years do all characters that have played from the beginning have all maxed their saving throws or can they be maxed at some point. If so that's a bummer and a big minus from me. Uniformity in this matter is not a good idea, there should be a variety according to choices the character makes concerning saving throws to bring flavor to gameplay.
In order to MAX ALL saves, I'd think that you would need to max all professions, which at just the 11 core classes + 3 npc classes would take over 17 years. If you include non-core classes it will jump to 25-30 years. If someone plays the game for that long, they deserve to be a super-hero.
At 2.5 years you may have mastered a single role, or dabbled in several. That will give you very good saves, but you wont be saving vs everything, especially if you are not wearing all tier 3 gear. If you are wearing all T3 gear, then most of it wont be threaded.
I really hope so :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Imbicatus
"In order to MAX ALL saves, I'd think that you would need to max all professions"
So you're saying a role shoudn't be able to contribute more than an average +33* total to your saves? That doesn't seem right.
*Three saves with a max of 150 each, for a total of 450 points of saves, divided amongs 14 roles yields an average of 33 points of save per role.
@Aeioun
"The system sounds good, but it doesn't allow a character to avoid a one shotting dragon."
The game is designed to avoid one-shots (See assassin discussions/fireball alpha strikes/etc). One of the design goals is to ensure players have a chance to react to a situation. Let's wait to see if a dragon *can* one shot you, before arguing that this particular aspect of system doesn't prevent it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Dario
Are you really questioning whether a dragon can one shot a human? I would say you don't probably know a lot about fantasy, but I guess it's more like a miscommunication of some sort between us.
But such a saving throw system as in TT can be implemented easily into the existing PFO system as described in the blog and as you suggest.
Dragon randomly chooses a victim among heroes. If the character chosen has reflex save less than 100 he gets squished and grabbed, if he has 100-150 he gets squished but not dragged, if he has more than 150 he gets neither squished nor dragged. How these scenarios would play in animation is a question mark.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Aeioun A dragon has traditionally been able to one-shot a PC in TTs. In MMOs the one -shot is really very unpopular. Dario is pointing out that the Devs have stated a design purpose to try and eliminate one-shots.
This is really an interesting statement, why would the devs have to try to eliminate one-shotting? Because it's in the TT? Maybe. Are there that many one-shots at the level range included or designed in PFO? I guess I'm trying to defend a small random factor when it comes to humans and dragons: grabbing and biting off the head. :)
@Aeioun
I am not sure whether they have stated they wish to eliminate all one shotting or just player on player one shotting. They have certainly said they want to avoid the latter but I haven't seen a definitive statement about pve 1 shotting (doesn't mean there isn't one). Certainly mobs in other mmo's can one shot even when players tend not to be able to but they are mostly boss mobs which presumably a dragon would be classed as.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I doubt very much that the devs are seeking to completely eliminate one-shots. Based on Stephen's post, it seems likely that an assassin can one-shot someone if given the opportunity to stack enough Being Observed on them.
Yes, part of being a skilled assassin group is varying up your observations to keep the target from deduction. Being able to see the stack totals is part of the target's agency, in basically being able to figure out how close he's getting to being able to be one-shotted (e.g., a high-HP heavy armor wearer may be in the mood of "Bring It!" at one stack, but may start to get a little antsy as the number rises and he realizes he's not going to get to fight back unless he can figure out where the assassin is).
But this is a scenario where the player is given a significant period of warning that a potential one-shot is incoming. The statement that we don't know if a dragon can one-shot you or not is an inference on my part based on a desire, expressed by the devs, for player agency, the belief that players should be able to react and interact with the events occuring to and around their characters rather than passively observing them.
This is supported by comments in the Murder by Numbers blog, referring to making combat less "swingy" and more predictable, as well as the changes to crits from being more damage to being a lasting injury debuff instead. There is some evidence that PvE may function differently than PvP, since non-player enemies who are critted will "expend" this debuff automatically, trading it for extra damage. This seems to be an adjustment in favor of the player, however, since NPCs are not affected by long-duration debuffs to the same extent that players are.
Ultimately, if non-player enemies do have any one-shot abilities, then, based on the current trends, I expect that there will be warning that they are coming, and that they will be avoided by player action, rather than by passive save. Further, I suspect that the types of things that have traditionally lead to one-shot kills in TT games, or other MMOs, will operate more like what Imbicatus described above, triggering a critical injury debuff (as an aside, I suspect that there will be several tiers of these, with the probability of more or less severe injuries being based on the nature of the weapon, similar to how TT uses critical damage modifiers (x2/x3/4)) and possibly other secondary effects (burning, bleeding, etc).
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Goblin Squad Member
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How would it be possible to combine player action, saving throws and one-shotting? If a dragon lands in an attempt to grab a character, so the characters move away from the designated warning area. The dragon proceeds towards the player he is trying to grab. The dragon grabs him.
What could stop the dragon from grabbing the hero? If the other heroes hurt him enough before he gets to the character, he retracts back to the sky.
But I want to see a saving throw somewhere in this scenario. If the dragon gets close enough to the character he makes a grab attack against the heroes reflex save. If he succeeds by a certain amount the character is grabbed (ie deals certain amount of damage which is not necessarily applied at this point, but the system uses that amount).
The dragon retracts to the sky with the grabbed hero. Now if the hero can deal enough damage in comparison to the dragons grab attack while being grabbed, he is freed and drops to ground. Otherwise the dragon bites his head off.
The game will probably mark the person the dragon is after. Given the chance to be freed after being grabbed, would it be necessary?
Here's a scenario of one-shot that uses player action and an attack roll vs a saving throw where the amount of roll plays a part. The quality of the dragons grab attack plays a big part in the scenario. If the dragon rolls a high number he is most likely to eat the characters head. But if he grabs(rolls) poorly, the character can get away easily.
So there's a random factor in this one-shot scenario. This is why I hope people have different kinds of saving throws.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The math becomes easier for the developer and programmer, but the predictability would be discouraging. I want the "Hero Save" to be possible.I think this is a case where the change in perspective from tabletop to MMO is key. It's great for a "Hero Save" on the tabletop because the events that might initiate the save are fairly rare. Once you get into an MMO, these events will occur nearly constantly. The "Hero Save" is no longer a cool, rare event; instead, it's simply factored into the mathematical analysis of survivability.
The mathematical analysis of survivability isn't cool though. Having the occasional miraculous save is very cool. There might even be a Batman like word spashed onscreen. (Hardin makes a "miraculous save" !!Ka-Powee!!). That'd be cool. Mathematical integration of miraculously low percentages....not cool.
In Aeioun Plainsweed's example of a dragon reaching for a group of players with its huge talons, everyone in the "Talon grab" red warning circle should get a saving throw, and a few should be able to wriggle free and drop to the ground just as the dragon lifts of the rend its hapless prey. That is much more entertaining and dramatic than everyone in that same group having a 5%-20% reduced damage from a "Talon Grab", cause they're still gonna be dragon chow in about 10 minutes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Saves/Defense: Player characters can purchase Fortitude, Reflex, and Will up to +150 before buffs (and gain Base Defense from armor, see below). Saves are targeted by attacks, rather than rolled, and most physical attacks target Reflex (since armor provides resistance, there's no need for a different score to represent touch armor class as in tabletop).
@DeciusBrutus
That was not what I tried to represent. Since physical attacks target reflex, I was suggesting that only the damage(= amount depends on attack roll) be treated differently to advance the scenario.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Go down to the 'other effects' section: The dragon's grab applies the 'grabbed condition', which can be fully or partially resisted in intensity and/or duration. Someone with a poor defense might suffer a significant penalty due to having both arms pinned to their side, and take a long time to wriggle free, (suffering high penalties for a long time) while someone with a high defense might be grabbed about the waist only and slip out easily (suffering low penalties for a short time).
The mistake is assuming that even something like being swallowed whole is all-or-nothing just because that's the way it is in PnP. With few exceptions*, TT games don't do difficult number crunching. There's no reason not to do it in computer-mediated games.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The base defense from armor can of course be taken into account. XD. The point for me was to create a one-shot scenario where a saving throw is applied to directly affect that one-shot ability. To create exactly this kind of all-or-nothing scenario that would make sense in an mmo situation.
The dragon in the scenario has a one-shot ability that directly kills a character. But how to make it interesting for the player?
When the dragon is eating off the hero's head the hero could still stuck a sword down his throat, but in an mmo, would it be meaningful to implement such a mechanic? Though that would be truly heroic!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Effectively, what you seem to want is a death effect. It's not an attack that does damage, it's an all or nothing "if you get hit with this, you die, regardless of your defenses". There may very well be some NPC enemies that have those, but I expect they'll be very rare if present. They usually come across more as gimmicky boss mechanics (See, every dungeon boss fight in WOW over level 50) rather than actually being interesting. In my opinion, blanket death effects are about as interesting in a fight as randomly dropping connection. Sorry, fate has randomly decided you don't get to play anymore.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Effectively, what you seem to want is a death effect. It's not an attack that does damage.....In my opinion, blanket death effects are about as interesting in a fight as randomly dropping connection. Sorry, fate has randomly decided you don't get to play anymore.
Totally agree.
I don't mind fights that are incredibly hard, with certain attacks that potentially outright kill a character UNLESS something about them offsets the attack.
For example. I would love to see an epic battle against a sword master of some type who every now and then goes berserk and unleashes a huge amount of damage against whomever they are currently attacking. If a character is built to withstand sword attacks, such as a fighter in heavy armor with DR or the like, they probably live. If they're a squishy, then they probably die. Likewise, an epic fight against an arch mage that has a huge AoE or single character fire based attack would see a character not heavily built to resist magic/fire die.
These battles I like. You can learn and adjust to them. You have a chance of survival, moreso of your character is of the type that offsets the type of damage being output.
I dislike random death effects....just because you were standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also what I'm interested in is combat effects that can be meaningfully implemented into an mmo and what those effects mean and the adaptions of those effects:
Damage, Heal, Movement effects(rooted, hindered, boosted), Stun effects(stun, knockback, disorient, fear, charm), Buffs, Debuffs, Invisibility, Direct kill, Immunity, Resistance, Summon,
Anything more? Or are all combat actions just combinations and/or adaptions of these?
When you go face a dragon you prepare the "resistance from fire" spell. These kinds of meaningful choices I'd like to see in PFO.
One of my favorite spells is the blindness/deafness, especially the blindness . Would it work in an mmo if you could use it once a day and the blindness could be healed by a healer with a correct spell as in TT?