I was considering to remake the system slightly to both make them more interdependent, simple and to generally make more sense.
I was thinking something like :
strength : damage, strength attributes, hitpoint bonus, fortitude
dexterity : to hit, initiative, reflex, Armor Class bonus
personality : Will, casting modifier
intellect : bonus spells, skill bonus
I should reevaluate class and race abilities to stay relevant to what they should do and redesign some things quite significantly.
Do you think this is a decent change, do you have any ideas to
I personally enjoy the idea of huge giants having problems to hit the hero that dodges his attacks gracefully, but really hurting you when they do and having a load of hit points, of course giants should be adjusted in CR or stats to make a decent challenge but it seems a fun change.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you have less attributes you'll have to re-balance the point buy system.
I must admit I like the current system with 6 attributes, which each represent different aspects of a person:
I'm not a big fan of mixing str with con, it makes most melee-ish classes have very similar stats, which is a bummer because it means you end up with even more cookie-cutter builds, when these are already hard to customize as it is.
While mixing wis with cha seems to solve the dump-stat problem, it also means that characters won't have the possibility to have flaws, as in being a bit dense (low int) or annoying (low cha) or reckless (low wis) ... (those are just examples, there's plenty more possible explanations for a low attribute).
I actually remember an old system from AD&D2 supplement "Skills and Powers" that separated the 6 attributes into 2 each:
Strength: Stamina/Muscle
Dexterity: Aim/Balance
Constitution: Health/Fitness
Intelligence: Reason/Knowledge
Wisdom: Intuition/Willpower
Charisma: Leadership/Appearance
If I remember correctly you could increase one side at the expense of the other.
It's a neat idea, that individualizes characters even more, while keeping the old 6-attribute habits. However the system can't be applied to Pathfinder as each attribute doesn't represent as many things as they used to, back in AD&D2, which is both a blessing (less bookkeeping) and a curse (less individualization).
|
If I was to change the system, I'd merge Wisdom and Charisma into one stat ("Personality") and split Dexterity into two stats, probably one for Aim and one for Reflexes. Presently there's too many things going in Dexterity; everyone always wants high Dex. Meanwhile Cha and Wis need just a little bit more so it's meaningful to everyone.
|
I enjoyed the ability system in first edition rolemaster; 10 stats, the first five driving the characters development points, the second fives providing most of the characters mods for combat and skills.
Having 10 stats provided a lot more granularity in defining exactly how proficient a character was at various activities.
|
Like Artanthos, I would go for more ability scores not less.
Personally I would spit Dexterity into Accuracy (to hit bonus melee & ranged, some skills) and Nimbleness (AC & save, other skills). I would also spit Wisdom in Spirit (Will save, some skills, divine magic), and Perception (Bonus vs surprise, bonus to intuitive, psionics, other skills).
Like This:
Strength
Accuracy
Nimbleness
Constitution
Intelligence
Spirit
Perception
Charisma
But, I think it would be a tough sell to the average D&D/pathfinder player, too Palladium
Like Artanthos, I would go for more ability scores not less.
Personally I would spit Dexterity into Accuracy (to hit bonus melee & ranged, some skills) and Nimbleness (AC & save, other skills). I would also spit Wisdom in Spirit (Will save, some skills, divine magic), and Perception (Bonus vs surprise, bonus to intuitive, psionics, other skills).
Like This:
Strength
Accuracy
Nimbleness
Constitution
Intelligence
Spirit
Perception
CharismaBut, I think it would be a tough sell to the average D&D/pathfinder player, too Palladium
Ok, if you have these 10 abilities what would each of them govern ?
strength - damage and weight allowance
accuracy - bonus to hit
nimbleness - AC bonus, reflex saves
constitution - fortitude and bonus hitpoints
intelligence - bonus skill points, bonus spells
spirit - spell power ?
perception - initiative
charisma - will saves
Would I have to remove certain skills to implement this system, what would be a more or less fair distribution of the things they govern ?
|
|
AO You're almost right on, but it would be more like this.
Strength - Damage & Encumbrance; Skills: Climb, Swim & Intimidate
Accuracy - To hit & Skills: Disable Device, Slight of Hand.
Nimbleness - AC, Reflex save & All other traditionally dex based skills.
Constitution - You're right on the money, Fort & HP.
Intelligence - Same as always.
Spirit - Will save, Divine Magic & Heal skill.
Perception - Intuitive, Surprise (eliminating spot & search as skills) (oops and psionics)
Charisma - What it currently does plus chance of resurrection survival and the elimination of the leadership feat.
Well that's my take.
I would add Comliness back to the game. I'd make it a stat that you just.. chose.
Are you Gorgeous? Uglier than a mud fence?
Your character- you decide.
That lets Charisma do what its supposed to do (be your force of personality) by completely divorcing it from your appearance.
Otherwise? I'd leave the Stats alone.
-S
I would add Comliness back to the game. I'd make it a stat that you just.. chose.
Are you Gorgeous? Uglier than a mud fence?
Your character- you decide.That lets Charisma do what its supposed to do (be your force of personality) by completely divorcing it from your appearance.
Otherwise? I'd leave the Stats alone.
-S
I appreciate the input but comeliness is one of the things I am not interested in, I do not see putting a score to comeliness adds to the game, it is too subjective and even more so from race to race.
AO You're almost right on, but it would be more like this.
Strength - Damage & Encumbrance; Skills: Climb, Swim & Intimidate
Accuracy - To hit & Skills: Disable Device, Slight of Hand.
Nimbleness - AC, Reflex save & All other traditionally dex based skills.
Constitution - You're right on the money, Fort & HP.
Intelligence - Same as always.
Spirit - Will save, Divine Magic & Heal skill.
Perception - Intuitive, Surprise (eliminating spot & search as skills) (oops and psionics)
Charisma - What it currently does plus chance of resurrection survival and the elimination of the leadership feat.Well that's my take.
I am unsure on perception as an ability usually the perception skill opposes stealth, somehow it is supposed to replace spot/perception checks to notice a stealthing individual ?
I personally think that Charisma should be repurposed, or split up a bit. Currently, it represents an ability to manipulate people socially, *and* your appearance. Perhaps I look really freaking cool, and I know how to pose to look cool, but when it comes to actually talking to people I look like an absolute dork. Maybe my presence is intimidating but I'm incapable of utilizing that diplomatically. Maybe your ability to talk to people shouldn't f*$!ing fuel your retarded ass magic. Maybe I'm angry.
I personally think that Charisma should be repurposed, or split up a bit. Currently, it represents an ability to manipulate people socially, *and* your appearance. Perhaps I look really freaking cool, and I know how to pose to look cool, but when it comes to actually talking to people I look like an absolute dork. Maybe my presence is intimidating but I'm incapable of utilizing that diplomatically. Maybe your ability to talk to people shouldn't f~#*ing fuel your retarded ass magic. Maybe I'm angry.
I never consider charisma as appearance, I prefer to change the name to personality, though I would rather have personality fueling magic than intelligence or wisdom even, at least when it comes down to the relative power of the magic, intelligence and wisdom/spirit might still play an important role.
I do away with dice rolling and point buy and use a system similar to the way Skills are bought and increased.
I enjoy the statistics used in the Sci-Fi Game Shadowrun 3rd Edition where you had 3 body, 3 mental, and 3 special characteristics the stats themselves are essentially the same with some small changes but I enjoy how reaction is the average of intellegence and quickness, charisma is the same but also governs sense motive. No wisdom, but there is willpower. Finally the three that are different are essence, magic, and reaction( as told before). Magic is how strong your magic may be. Essence is related to the bodies "wholeness"(this specifically is tied to how much cyberwear and drug effects and more). Having a specific Magic stat that is inversely tied to essence, which would be tied to combat effectiveness, might be a neat idea. Higher essence could represent a BAB where as the Magic Stat is related to spell lvls you have access to.
Note: I realize for those who have played SR 3rd edition I know that essence is not inversly tied to magic.
Honestly, the ability system (and the point-buy system) is one of the few mechanics in the game that is NOT broken. As others have said, if you changed the system around, there are other things you'd have to change. It's one of the core mechanics that the whole game revolves around, so you will likely discover things that it will affect later that you didn't realize you were affecting.
If your main concern is some classes needing multiple attributes, a better solution would be to introduce new feats and items that allow characters to convert X to Y. For example, maybe you introduce a feat called Improved Weapon Finesse (or something similar) that allows you to add your DEX modifier to damage rolls instead of STR.
Something similar to this concept that I remember from 3.5 is Kung Fu Genius. It allowed Monks to use INT instead of WIS to determine their bonus AC, as well as a few other monk features, I believe. These of course are only examples of ways you can help some classes condense which ability scores they should focus on.
Honestly, I'd get rid of ability scores entirely and have all your statistics derived from your class and level. Ability scores lead to characters being too similar, ironically - every fighter ends up being strong and dumb, every wizard ends up being smart and weak, etc.
Honestly, I'd get rid of ability scores entirely and have all your statistics derived from your class and level. Ability scores lead to characters being too similar, ironically - every fighter ends up being strong and dumb, every wizard ends up being smart and weak, etc.
That is more about how you determine scores than the actual workings of it and not all are the same, just the optimized builds on the boards here.
I enjoy the statistics used in the Sci-Fi Game Shadowrun 3rd Edition where you had 3 body, 3 mental, and 3 special characteristics the stats themselves are essentially the same with some small changes but I enjoy how reaction is the average of intellegence and quickness, charisma is the same but also governs sense motive. No wisdom, but there is willpower. Finally the three that are different are essence, magic, and reaction( as told before). Magic is how strong your magic may be. Essence is related to the bodies "wholeness"(this specifically is tied to how much cyberwear and drug effects and more). Having a specific Magic stat that is inversely tied to essence, which would be tied to combat effectiveness, might be a neat idea. Higher essence could represent a BAB where as the Magic Stat is related to spell lvls you have access to.
Note: I realize for those who have played SR 3rd edition I know that essence is not inversly tied to magic.
my experience with sr is very limited though I am reading up on it a bit now, the material's format seems a bit awkward for reading and poaching useful stuff, but I think it has potential.
I'd probably get rid of the 3-18 spread and just use the modifiers. I also like having less ability scores, but I'm not sure how I'd go about it so I haven't really subscribed to that method of thought.
But I'd at least change the ability scores so that instead of a spread like:
STR: 18
DEX: 12
CON: 13
INT: 7
WIS: 12
CHA: 15
(Made up on the spot, so I haven't checked the point buy)
It would just be
STR: 4
DEX: 1
CON: 1
INT: -2
WIS: 1
CHA: 2
Then at every 4th level you'd get to add 1 to one of your stats, but you can't pick the same stat twice in a row.
It'd certainly make distinguishing higher stats easier and quicker.
Honestly, I'd get rid of ability scores entirely and have all your statistics derived from your class and level. Ability scores lead to characters being too similar, ironically - every fighter ends up being strong and dumb, every wizard ends up being smart and weak, etc.That is more about how you determine scores than the actual workings of it and not all are the same, just the optimized builds on the boards here.
Sure, obviously there are small variations. But if you want to play, say, a lightly armored, finesse-based fighter, you have to pay feat taxes in order to make that concept work. If you want to play a fighter who overcomes his opponents through tactics and wit (example: Sherlock Holmes in the most recent film adaptation), there's no real mechanical way to represent that. Divorcing combat effectiveness from ability scores allows you narrative control to describe your character however you want without being hampered by the numbers.
I'd probably get rid of the 3-18 spread and just use the modifiers. I also like having less ability scores, but I'm not sure how I'd go about it so I haven't really subscribed to that method of thought.
But I'd at least change the ability scores so that instead of a spread like:
STR: 18
DEX: 12
CON: 13
INT: 7
WIS: 12
CHA: 15(Made up on the spot, so I haven't checked the point buy)
It would just be
STR: 4
DEX: 1
CON: 1
INT: -2
WIS: 1
CHA: 2Then at every 4th level you'd get to add 1 to one of your stats, but you can't pick the same stat twice in a row.
It'd certainly make distinguishing higher stats easier and quicker.
This is something that I've been kicking around, too.
Personally I hate the fact that odd numbers do absolutely nothing. I increase my 16 to a 17! I get jack squat for another 4 levels! Yay!
It just seems really dated and obsolete design.
Personally I hate the fact that odd numbers do absolutely nothing. I increase my 16 to a 17! I get jack squat for another 4 levels! Yay!
It just seems really dated and obsolete design.
I did give +1 to two stats every 4 levels in a previous game, this gives you quite a bit of freedom on how to boost your abilities and can make sure you get pay off every 4 levels, if you go for an early pay off you might not see benefits every level. I also reinforced no starting ability scores over 18 after racial adjustments, this was in part to make MAD characters more viable and decrease dump stats.
I did give +1 to two stats every 4 levels in a previous game, this gives you quite a bit of freedom on how to boost your abilities and can make sure you get pay off every 4 levels, if you go for an early pay off you might not see benefits every level. I also reinforced no starting ability scores over 18 after racial adjustments, this was in part to make MAD characters more viable and decrease dump stats.Personally I hate the fact that odd numbers do absolutely nothing. I increase my 16 to a 17! I get jack squat for another 4 levels! Yay!
It just seems really dated and obsolete design.
That method would certainly help with the "dead" +1s issue. It just seems odd to me that game designers haven't really caught on to this yet. I mean, 5th edition D&D isn't that far away and even they haven't considered changing the crummy old ability system. Heck, "baby with the bathwater 4th edition" wouldn't even touch the ability system.
|
I would not apply ability mod to skills or have each skill include some uses involving straight skill rolls. Ability mods could unlock extra ways to use the skill.
I think we have a god number of attributes in PF. Reducing could be fine many other games do it.
If any ability was to go, int would be my first pick. It can be replaced with skills.
|
|
The top 5 stats determined development points.
Presence, Intuition and Empathy are the casting stats, one for each form of magic. Hybrid casters could rely on 2 forms, archmages used all 3 forms of magic. In the case of hybrids, casting stats are averaged together to determine bonuses.
One of the quirks of the first edition Rolemaster system was that development points are determined by stats, not class. Low Memory and Reason hurt a fighter just as much as a wizard.
I'm always interested by discussions like this. I've seen a few different attribute systems that I really like, and I've tried implementing a few into PF, but they tend not to play well with existing rules.
For instance, in the New World of Darkness rules, there are 9 attributes split up by group and type. 3 groups (Mental, Physical, Social) and 3 types (Power, Finesse, Resistance).
Honestly, if I was serious about re-designing attributes, I would also take a long hard look at the Skill system. The way Intelligence interacts with skills doesn't actually make a lot of sense. A wizard with 6 strength and an intelligence of 30 can absolutely be a world-class swimmer and climber in addition to mastering the forces of the universe.
What?
New World of Darkness also did this in a way I like, where skills are divided into Mental, Physical, and Social, and you decide what importance each group of skills has, which determines how many skill points you get in each group.
There is enough that is different about NWoD that any kind of direct port would be horrible, but I think it'd be worth drawing inspiration from.
Or get rid of them entirely, though that wouldn't quite be Pathfinder anymore.
I admit, the option has some appeal. We see players dropping stats to where PCs end up looking like cookie-cutters of one another.
What if the system was more capability-based? A PC could be as strong as they wanted, as handsome as they wanted...but would display different skills with sword, arrow, and so on.
Except it wouldn't be PF anymore, and some of the same issues could still occur. We'd also gain some flexibility, though lose it in other ways, and so that would need addressed.
capability-based sounds like FATE to me.