| ashern |
Hey all, I have a friend who really wants to play a rogue who sneak attacks from ranged. I'm currently trying to talk the player into an alchemist/ninja since a rogue would be under the level of optimization of the rest of the characters at the table. However, I've also never played a character using sneak attacks with ranged. Any suggestions for doing so? I saw sniper goggles and I think I remember reading about blunt arrows somewhere that can do nonlethal... maybe? I was thinking trying to build sap master into a ranged build for some ludicrous nonlethal damage between sap adept and snipers goggles.
Some info:
-Level 12, any race, class, feats, spells, from core, APG, UC, UM, ARG. Any gear from those sources or UE is probably good, but might need DM approval.
-20 point buy
-100,000 gold to spend.
Thanks!
| StreamOfTheSky |
Well, APG has blunt arrows. And there is the Bludgeoner feat. If it is level 12, a Ninja can actually pull this off, as can an Alchemist, since both get Greater Invisibility. Rogue requires extra work. Any build will require a TON of feats, just because ranged combat needs a lot, Sap Master implicitly requires a lot (the two sap feats, Bludgeoner feat, and Shatter Defenses and all its pre-reqs to actually make people flatfooted for Sap Master, at a bare minimum), and so forth.
If he insists on being a rogue, he will need a way to get ranged sneak attacks reliably to begin with. I suggest dipping Oracle 1 level for the Water Sight revelation of the Waves mystery. He now can see through fog/mist, and gets Obscuring Mist as a spell. Per Obscuring Mist's description, anyone more than 5 ft away in this mist cannot be seen, so 5 ft step back and sneak attack away!
Rake archetype is basically required for this, so you can make any SA into a demoralize and thus fuel shatter defenses for Sap Master.
Build would be Rogue 11 / Oracle 1, or possibly with a Fighter or other dip in order to fill up your huge feat requirements.
Feats neeed: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Sap Adept, Sap Master, Bludgeoner, Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses
You get 6 general feats from levels, could always go human for another (I'd try for a race w/ darkvision if at all possible, though), Rogue talents can provide Weapon Focus and 2 other combat feats via Combat Trick and Ninja Trick (Combat Trick) -- yes, it's rules legal -- and...yeah, that's about it w/o dipping further. So it's just barely possible.
Let's build a feat progression, pretending you did Oracle at level 1 for simplicity, doesn't really matter where you took it.
Feats:
1 Point Blank Shot
3 Weapon Focus [Weapon Training talent]
3 Rapid Shot
5 Precise Shot [Ninja Trick: Combat Trick]
5 Dazzling Display
7 Sap Adept
9 Shatter Defenses [Combat Trick talent]
9 Bludgeoner
11 Sap Master
Required gear: Sniper's Goggles (so foes can't just move away from the mist for safety), a Bow with the Seeking property (any miss % kills SA), smoke sticks (power component; makes mist not burn away from fire attacks).
Other good gear: Dex enhancer, AC enhancers, cloak of resist, bracers of falcon's aim
Lesser meta rod of quicken would be nice for the Obscuring Mist, not required. And kinda pricy. Having some scrolls of Greater Invis as a backup to Use Magic Device on wouln't hurt, either.
| GM Arkwright |
Hmm... I have an alternate suggestion.
Go Rogue (Rake, scout) 8/Fighter X; Fighter for the BAB and weapon training.
Human.
Feats:
1 Point Blank Shot
1 Precise Shot
3 Weapon Focus (Bow)
5 Sap Adept
7 Sap Master
9 Dazzling Display
11 Shatter Defenses
So, here's what you do.
Armed with a merciful bow, you move 10ft to get sneak attack as per the Scout ability, and shoot. He's flat-footed so you get the Sap Adept and Sap Master bonus. You forfeit a few d6 of the sneak attack to attempt a demoralize check, as per the Rake ability. With the enemy demoralized, every attack you make next turn against him will be dealing sneak attack thanks to Shatter Defenses.
Required gear: Sniper's Goggles, Bow with the Merciful property, or blunt arrows.
Alternatively, replace the fighter levels with levels of Gunslinger. This build works just as well when armed with a Musket.
| StreamOfTheSky |
Actually only Sap Master requires flatfooted.
An he's going to want to full attack SA to do relevant damage, especially in an optimized party. A "normal archer" (like fighter or ranger or whatever) can easily outdo a single sneak attack shot's damage every single round with their bog standard full attack.
| StreamOfTheSky |
A gun build might be good; I hate and despise the PF gun rules so I avoid them in my suggestions...
I don't think Merciful is a great idea, though. You'd need to spend actions to turn it off. Better to just take Bludgeoner if you have the room for it.
EDIT: By spending actions to deactivate, I'm not even talking about after you've knocked everyone out w/ nonlethal and it's "killin' tyme," I'm thinking of combats against the myriad things immune to nonlethal, but not to SA. You forgo the first round of combat - the only one where foes are always going to be flatfooted -- to deactivate your merciful so you can actually hurt them at all. Bad idea, IMO.
| ashern |
Oh man, I had totally missed that sap master requires flat footed, not just sneak attack conditions normally. That's even more constrained that I had expected. Nice build Streamofthesky!
Hrm... so assuming that you are shooting out of the cloud at someone less than 30 feet away, that's taking your base 6d6 sneak attack damage, doubling it for sap master, then adding +4 per die (between sniper's goggles and sap adept). That's 1d8 for bow + 12d6+48 per arrow... that's pretty crazy!
| StreamOfTheSky |
Well, it took a lot of work to set up, and possibly the first round to cast obscuring mist (I don't suppose there's some familiar in the party that could just use a wand of it for the rogue?) :)
But yeah, you can make any class work quite well if you optimize enough. Some just take a lot more effort than others...
| StreamOfTheSky |
Undead, Constructs, Mummified alchemists... Fair bit of things subject to SA but not nonlethal. Elementals are not immune to nonlethal but ARE immune to SA, oddly. Also, anyone w/ Uncanny Dodge is basically impossible to ranged sneak attack.
Getting Ghost Touch on the bow or at least some arrows (I suggest durable ones, so they don't break on a miss) would be a good idea, since that makes the difference between being able to sneak attack ghosts and wraiths or not.
| StreamOfTheSky |
Alchemist could certainly work if dipped enough for feats. Your SA would suffer, of course. Main advantage I like about Alchemist is that a) for the mist trick, they have Wings and can thus do it from safety in the air, b) they just plain have greater invis, so you don't need the mist trick if playing at a high enough level.
Rake's ability to turn any SA into a demoralize would be sorely missed, though. That might make things a lot more difficult, actually. Flatfooted is such a pain in the ass to get... An ally who is willing to dip Rogue 2 levels for the Distracting Attack talent is by far the easiest method; anyone he melee sneak attacks is flatfooted to the rogue for 1 round (but he does not benefit; that's why rogue needs a benefactor for this). Even if the rogue simply got a cohort for the task via Leadership. Then you could get rid of Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses, and need of the Rake archetype.
| StreamOfTheSky |
Well, obviously a Viv. Alchemist... Beastmorph, too.
Still doesn't make it easy to demoralize from range to fuel Shatter Defenses for Sap Master, nor help at all with the massive feat burden. I was probably too hard on rogue. The sheer amount of bonus feats you can wrangle (1 more than you can from ninja) and Rake archetype really help the build a lot. Possibly irreplaceably so.
| StreamOfTheSky |
I suppose technically Alchemist levels are better than rogue ones, even if you're diluting Alchemist advancement... Well, that leaves you with two options, as I see it:
Go Rogue 2 / Viv. Alchemist 10 and rely on your very limited Greater Invis extracts per day (probably like 2).
Or go Rogue 4 / Viv. Alchemist 7 / Oracle 1, because if you lose more than 2 Alchemist levels, you don't have Greater Invis and need to rely on the mist trick once again.
The first, even with human, leaves you with not enough feats for Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, and the entire Sap Master intimidating set up. Something would have to be sacrificed.
The 2nd build works if human, but your alchemist levels have been pretty heavily stunted. Might still be superior to my Rogue 11 / Oracle 1 build, though.
| Joanna Swiftblade |
Instead of making a bow / sap hybrid, why not use the Throw Anything feat to throw Saps? You still gain use of the Sap Master and Sap Adept feats, but at a range (doesn't specify melee or range, just bludgeoning weapon and nonlethal damage). You get this feat for free by taking levels in Vivisectionist.
Something like 3-4 Vivisectionist > X Rogue/Ninja would would great! Now you are capable in both melee and (close) ranged situations without having to even switch weapons. You can start with a 16 DEX, maybe 18 with racial bonus, and have TWF and weapon finesse for melee, and then have a moderate STR score which you can then buff with mutagen and extracts to increase average damage. Then pick up general ranged feats for when you need to throw saps.
| ashern |
Joanna, I think you're misunderstanding a bit. The "Sap" reference is to the feats, not actually for using a physical sap in combat.
Stream: I think you about hit the sweet spot with that build. From there on out, keep taking alchemist levels for better spell casting/discovery progressions. You take some BAB hit from all of this, but shooting against flat footed isn't as hard, and you're doing some silly amounts of damage.
| StreamOfTheSky |
Stats: Depends if doing Rogue/oracle, or using alchemist, too.
You want dex high, you want at least Con 12, ideally 14. You need cha 11 to cast obscuring mist, ideally 12 for the bonus. Int at least 10 so you don't lose skill points (alchemist needs this higher), str at least 10 to not take a damage penalty, ideally 12+. Wisdom has no real use but your will save is awful. So... no real dump stats. :(
Rogue starting array (includes racial +2 Dex):
Str 12, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 12
*or*
Str 12, Dex 19, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 12
(or Str 13, Con 12; or Int 12, Str 10)
For an Alchemist/Rogue/Oracle build (w/ racial dex +2), you'd want...
Str 12, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 12
*or*
Str 11, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 12
Regardless, all level up bonuses (+3 worth) to dex for Dex 20 (22 for 2nd rogue array) before magic items.
| Driver 325 yards |
Well, APG has blunt arrows. And there is the Bludgeoner feat. If it is level 12, a Ninja can actually pull this off, as can an Alchemist, since both get Greater Invisibility. Rogue requires extra work. Any build will require a TON of feats, just because ranged combat needs a lot, Sap Master implicitly requires a lot (the two sap feats, Bludgeoner feat, and Shatter Defenses and all its pre-reqs to actually make people flatfooted for Sap Master, at a bare minimum), and so forth.
If he insists on being a rogue, he will need a way to get ranged sneak attacks reliably to begin with. I suggest dipping Oracle 1 level for the Water Sight revelation of the Waves mystery. He now can see through fog/mist, and gets Obscuring Mist as a spell. Per Obscuring Mist's description, anyone more than 5 ft away in this mist cannot be seen, so 5 ft step back and sneak attack away!
Rake archetype is basically required for this, so you can make any SA into a demoralize and thus fuel shatter defenses for Sap Master.
Build would be Rogue 11 / Oracle 1, or possibly with a Fighter or other dip in order to fill up your huge feat requirements.
Feats neeed: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Sap Adept, Sap Master, Bludgeoner, Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses
You get 6 general feats from levels, could always go human for another (I'd try for a race w/ darkvision if at all possible, though), Rogue talents can provide Weapon Focus and 2 other combat feats via Combat Trick and Ninja Trick (Combat Trick) -- yes, it's rules legal -- and...yeah, that's about it w/o dipping further. So it's just barely possible.
Let's build a feat progression, pretending you did Oracle at level 1 for simplicity, doesn't really matter where you took it.
Feats:
1 Point Blank Shot
3 Weapon Focus [Weapon Training talent]
3 Rapid Shot
5 Precise Shot [Ninja Trick: Combat Trick]
5 Dazzling Display
7 Sap Adept
9 Shatter Defenses [Combat Trick talent]
9 Bludgeoner
11 Sap MasterRequired gear: Sniper's Goggles...
Yes, I know this is an old thread. However, could someone explain why the bolded is rules legal. I don't doubt it. I would just like to be able to explain it should I be questioned about it.
| Kazaan |
Yes, I know this is an old thread. However, could someone explain why the bolded is rules legal. I don't doubt it. I would just like to be able to explain it should I be questioned about it.
You can't. The Ninja Trick Rogue talent specifically states that you cannot select a Ninja Trick that has the same name as a Rogue Talent. Since there is a Rogue Talent called Combat Trick, you cannot use the Ninja Trick talent to take Combat Trick. So, in short, SotS was incorrect in that assertion.