Reworking the Forsaker for my campaign, Naruto style

[carborundum]

(Also posted on enworld, though no-one has any ideas there yet - or they all think it's stoopid)

In my Savage Tide campaign, one player has a Forsaker. He's now a Barbarian 3 Forsaker 1.
I've been tweaking the class (a lot) and at level 1 he has:

Ability bonus +1, fast healing 2, forsake magic, SR 10 + forsaker level

My current plan (the player hasn't seen it all yet) is:

Level Special
1 Ability bonus +1, fast healing 2, forsake magic, SR 10 + forsaker level
2 Ability bonus +1, DR 2/-, Evasion
3 Ability bonus +1, natural weapons +1, tough defence (Con mod AC)
4 Ability bonus +1, fast healing 3, DR 4/-
5 Ability bonus +1, natural weapons +2, Disjuncture Strike 1x/day
6 Ability bonus +1, DR 6/-, slippery mind
7 Ability bonus +1, fast healing 4, natural weapons +3, Saves +4
8 Ability bonus +1, DR 8/-, Mettle
9 Ability bonus +1, natural weapons +4, Foresight (Wis to AC)
10 Ability bonus +1, fast healing 5, DR 10/-, Disjuncture Strike 3x/day

The Disjuncture strike is a 1% chance per Forsaker level to affect one item with a Mordenkainen's Disjunction style attack. I'm not sure if this will be suppression or removal of the magical power though.

Anyway, it doesn't seem overpowered considering he has no access to magic items or spells. It's not as powerful as the Vow of Poverty anyway

My problem is the whole premise of the class. You are basically dependent on magic items to be anti-magic. After watching too many Naruto episodes I thought of giving the character a different source of power. His backstory had some nice holes in it (captured by Yuan-ti) so I have a free hand. I was thinking - what if the Yuan-ti had planted something in him? A larva of some sort in magical stasis while it grows. His first level of Forsaker is the first appearance of the thing.

Where I want to end up is have the thing develop a sort of symbiotic relationship - it protects and heals it's host but magic simultaneously affects the delicate balance of energies in him - hence his avoidance of it in all forms. I was thinking of giving him a degree of control over this at higher levels - whereby he could suppress the strict anti-magic rule in times of dire need (party must teleport somewhere etc). Otherwise he turns into BA getting knocked out when the A-Team need to fly.

That makes the class more party friendly but keeps him mostly on the straight and narrow.
Another idea is have him drain items every level (to balance treasure etc) to power the stasis around the larva.

I'm also worried about infinite fast healing - but caps like 10 points per day are useless. Perhaps a 'pool' filled by draining items and used to power the fast healing, damage reduction etc. I'd like to get to the stage where if he's hurt it heals him, and it also gives spell resistance all the time. If he needs, say, natural weapons which cut through damage resistance, or to drain an item, or maybe a better will save or Mettle then he has to tap some sort of resource. I'd also like his becoming unconscious or dying be dangerous for those around him.

If anyone has any inclination to help me create such a class, or just explore the possibilities, I'd be most grateful.

[ericthecleric]

Regarding fast healing. The dragon shaman's (PHB2) fast healing aura is infinite, BUT it only heals up to the maximum of half max hp (which obviously varies for each creature).

[Matthew Morris]

I'd suggest give them the wisdom bonus to AC first, then use their Con mod as a damage reduction. Allow it to stack with Adamantine armor.

Also, is it all good saves, good fort save or what?

[carborundum]

Thanks - I thought about the fast healing aura, but decided against it since he'd basically be permanently on half it-points after the first encounter of the day. The dragon shaman can drink a potion or get healed. That's when I went looking for justification to have his damage heal even though he 'hates magic.' And that's when I came up with him not hating it, just having to be wary of getting it near him.

Nice idea with the DR and AC bonus - I think I'll do that! The good saves are: Fort and Will, by the way.

[Kurocyn]

At first, I didn't know where you were taking this, but I really like it so far.

My opinion on the fast healing is that it's better off being a constant. As previously stated, the PC can't just drink a potion, and it's not like he can approach a cleric/druid/paladin to be healed either. His options are rather limited.

Instead of trying to cap his fast healing or 'pooling' it in some way, just cut back on how much he heals each round. Start him off at fast healing 1 instead of 2. Would that work?

I don't like the magic item drain idea. At least not as a way to power him. That's what the implant is for right? If so, why would he need additional power to perform? Besides, this takes away from the PC-larvae symbiote idea and turns him into more of a parasite, feeding off of magic he drains. ( This could even have him searching out magic, instead of avoiding it... )

Also, I don't believe that you can stat out how such a character would react to magic/his healing through what appears to be magic. It's player dependent. How does he play the character? Does he abhore magic in all its forms or does it just make his spidey-sense tingle? Or does he actually find magic fascinating, but cannot approach it due to some physical restriction? ( Perhaps his larvae? )

I would suggest that you have magical items/auras actually affect him if they drew too close. You said that the balance of energies within him would be effected, so use that. Make it his Kryptonite, so to speak.

For items with say, a +3 bonus or lower being within 5' of him, he gets such and such penalty; a +5 bonus or lower having a greater effect and so on. Should an artifact/diety level item/aura/creature be in proximity, actually have him take damage from it, like a reverese fast healing.

I just threw out numbers and such here, but depending on the level of items/magic this PC is around you could tailor it to give the player an actual reason to RP the character's reactions to magic.

Just some thoughts.

-Kurocyn

*edit - The more I read through this, the more I like it. Mind if I use this for my group? ^ ^

[Guy Ladouceur]

I like the idea of the character as a whole, though I would make a couple of changes. One being the natural weapon ability would go up every third or even forth level. The other, instead of the disjuncture ability I would give the character some type of special sunder ability that when a magical item is destroyed the character gets some experience award like a Rogue disarming a trap.

There's my thoughts

[Yasha0006]

A good idea for the larval creature might be a Yuan-Ti Anathema (Field Folio). They are extremely nasty if you've never looked at them. A unique or special one might suit your needs perfectly.

[carborundum]

I agree with the disjunction - it was a suggestion I found somewhere else while fiddling with the initial concept. It can go away.

I don't want him powered by magic either, but I need a way to balance his not using items so the group doesn't benefit twice, so to speak. The best I have so far is that the point of the larva was to grow and hatch (an anathema is cool - thanks!) and by escaping from the Yuan-ti he has avoided this fate ... for now. Of course, the containment is now struggling but he's figure out a way to keep it going, by feeding it (gradually more) magic items - even though they hurt him, they keep him alive. (+3 in a 5' radius = sickened, maybe, and work up from there?)

It's got parallels with the slaad later in the arc too, which I like. After seeing what happens to poor father Feres the player is going to be on the edge of his seat every time that larva kicks :)

As for how he's playing him, he RP'd an aversion to magic from the start though he once was forcefed a potion when in the negatives. He immediately ran to the barrels of brandy (Lotus Hideout) to wash his mouth out. He also went to the church once* for emergency healing. He wouldn't accept it from anyone other than the church of Tempus then.
Neither of us liked the grumpy magic-eater from the original forsaker and he's happy to play along with this idea. He avoids magic because the character just feels uncomfortable around it so far. They haven't been in the neighbourhood of active, powerful magic yet, just the aftermath of the pearl.

Thanks guys - I'm getting a clearer picture slowly. I'll get working on a revised version in the morning.

*(in the middle of the Lotus dungeon - my thread on this was HERE - it caused some consternation in the group)

[ericthecleric]

Here’s some additional thoughts based on the OP’s and others’ comments:

* Maybe an alternative for a limitless fast healing is something like a vampiric healing effect. Ie. when the character does damage to something, the spilled blood flows is somehow absorbed by the parasite, which uses part of the energy to heal him. As the character gains more levels, the parasite heals more damage, maybe on the basis of 2 hp/hit at 1st-level, 3 hp/hit at 4th-level, 4 hp/hit at 7th-level, and so on (note, an attack should actually deal damage to result in healing); I’d suggest that bloodless creatures- ie. those immune to critical hits- that are hit do not result in any healing. However, the figures I suggest above may not provide enough healing for the character, in which case you’d need to improve them; this is something only play-testing could reveal. (Note also that a precedent similar to the above exists, in the form of the Martial Spirit stance (No9S).)

* I’d remove the “Saves +4”, “Disjuncture Strike” and “Foresight” abilities. These are additional to the basic PrC abilities, making it much more powerful. If the player wants Wis bonus to AC, he should take a level of ninja (Complete Adventurer), who can be of any alignment; note that ki power is supernatural so the forsaker can still use it! :-)

* Forsake magic does NOT mean that the character has to be like BA Baracus. It says that the character must make a Will save to gain the benefit; you could add a “Will save negates” factor for a beneficial effect like teleport, but remember that the saving throw must fail for the effect to work on the forsaker (so he’ll want a low Wis score, but the downside is that he’ll have a harder time against bad guys’ Will saves).

* Which edition are you using (3.0/3.5)? If using 3.5, the natural weapons effect doesn’t make sense, considering the change to how DR works. Instead, replace “Natural Weapons” with this:
Magic Strike (Ex): Beginning at 3rd-level, the forsaker can fight as though he and his weapon were one. Your melee attacks are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction/hardness. At 5th-level, you gain the benefit of the Improved Sunder feat. At 7th-level, your melee attacks deal double damage to magic objects. At 10th-level, your melee attacks are treated as adamantine for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction/hardness.

* > Another idea is have him drain items every level (to balance treasure etc) to power the stasis around the larva.
Yes, keep this. At each character level after first gaining forsaker, he must destroy his share of magic items to power the stasis field- so the party doesn’t end up with too much equipment. The “Magic Strike” ability above, should help with this. This lets him destroy equipment while gaining the next level, and/or after completing the adventure.

* > I would suggest that you have magical items/auras actually affect him if they drew too close. You said that the balance of energies within him would be effected, so use that. Make it his Kryptonite, so to speak.
I like this idea. A simpler way to handle it is to use the detect evil and detect magic spell effects for inspiration, regarding overwhelming aura power and being stunned. For example, if the forsaker is within 5-feet of an ongoing spell effect or magic item for more than one round, the forsaker is stunned until they are more than 5-feet apart. You could provide a Fort save DC (10+caster level) to avoid being stunned for that round. I’d suggest also that the effect(s) must be at least six caster levels higher than the forsaker’s character level, as well, before saves have to be made (assume that lesser magic is an annoyance, rather than a potential hazard), although perhaps CL+6 is too high, but maybe CL is too low.

[carborundum]

Thanks eric!

We are still playing mostly 3.0 with only the swift actions and immediate actions from 3.5, and a few spells updated. I'll get back to studying your ideas now - at first sight there's some great stuff there!

Thanks!

[carborundum]

It got a bit complicated but I think I've juggled everything into a coherent idea again. The party tallies all treasure anyway and assigns values to everyone's picks - that will be easy to let them do the bookkeeping for.
My new Magical Sensitivity thingy covers hostile and benign magic - he can risk the teleport but will pay the price. He'll also stay away from powerful magic items as much as possible.

More comments as welcome as the previous ones!

Good saves: Fort, Will

Level Special
1 Ability bonus +1, fast healing 2, forsake magic, SR 10 + forsaker level, Containment
2 Ability bonus +1, Evasion, Magical sensitivity
3 Ability bonus +1, Magic Strike, Foresight (Wis to AC)
4 Ability bonus +1, fast healing 3, DR = Con mod
5 Ability bonus +1, Improved Sunder
6 Ability bonus +1, Slippery mind
7 Ability bonus +1, Fast healing 4, Disrupt Item
8 Ability bonus +1, Mettle
9 Ability bonus +1, Foresight (Wis to AC)
10 Ability bonus +1, Fast healing 5, Adamantine Strike

Containment: The ‘thing’ inside you has not yet hatched. Your incredible willpower and determination has protected you until now, but as time goes on, the containment fields around it gradually weaken. You have an intuitive understanding of how to keep this working indefinitely. Each time you level up, you must destroy your share of party magical items gained during that level and use the energy to strengthen the containment. You are visible to Detect Magic spells with a strong aura of Abjuration, which will increase over time. This aura gives the larva the benefit of a Mind Blank spell at all times.

Magical sensitivity: This has two effects.

• Close proximity to magical auras can disturb the balance of forces holding the larva in check. When within 5’ of an ongoing magical effect (including magic items) with a caster level more than 5 levels above your own level, you must make a Fortitude save (DC10+Caster level) to avoid being stunned for a round. This takes the form of a tearing pain in your gut as the larva thrashes in the magical flux. If you remain in proximity of this item, whether or not you make the save, you take 2d6 points of subdual damage each round.
  
• 2)When affected personally by a spell (whether hostile or benign, but excluding force or elemental effects) you must make a Fortitude save (DC14+caster level) to avoid losing all Forsaker powers for 1d6 days while the binding energies struggle to regain their equilibrium. Note that you must be affected by the spell and not just targeted. The Forsaker powers can be reinstated sooner by destroying an item of caster level equal to your own level and with a minimum value of (1000gp x your level).

Magic Strike (Ex): Beginning at 3rd-level, the forsaker can fight as though he and his weapon were one. Your melee attacks are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction/hardness.

Disrupt Item (Ex): At 7th-level, your melee attacks deal double damage to magic objects.

Adamantine Strike (Ex): At 10th-level, your melee attacks are treated as adamantine for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction/hardness.

[Kobold Catgirl]

What's a forsaker?

[carborundum]

It's a 3.0 barbarian PrC who hates magic and gets DR and a bit of fast healing and stuff. It's from Masters of the Wild.
It's not much fun and very party-unfriendly as it stands.

[carborundum]

Here's what I ended up going with. I think someone liked the concept - sorry I forgot to post the final version sooner!

Full BAB, F=Fort, R=Ref, W=Will. Hard to format a table on this board.

1 BAB+1 F+2 R+0 W+2 Ability bonus +1, fast healing 2, forsake magic, SR 10 + forsaker level, Containment
2 BAB+2 F+3 R+0 W+3 Ability bonus +1, Evasion, Magical sensitivity
3 BAB+3 F+3 R+1 W+3 Ability bonus +1, Magic Strike, Foresight (Wis to AC)
4 BAB+4 F+4 R+1 W+4 Ability bonus +1, fast healing 3, DR = Con mod
5 BAB+5 F+4 R+1 W+4 Ability bonus +1, Improved Sunder
6 BAB+6 F+5 R+2 W+5 Ability bonus +1, Slippery mind
7 BAB+7 F+5 R+2 W+5 Ability bonus +1, Fast healing 4, Disrupt Item
8 BAB+8 F+6 R+2 W+6 Ability bonus +1, Mettle
9 BAB+9 F+6 R+3 W+6 Ability bonus +1, Adamantine Strike
10 BAB+10 F+7 R+3 W+7 Ability bonus +1, Fast healing 5, Align Weapon

Forsake Magic: In addition to avoiding all use of spellcasting, spell-like abilities, and magic items, the forsaker must also refuse any benefits from others’ magic—including magical healing. Thus, he must attempt a saving throw against any spell that allows one. For most beneficial spells, such displacement or neutralize poison, a successful save negates the spell’s effects; for a cure spell, it halves the benefit. The character must not benefit from a spell or spell-like ability of another creature.
The character henceforth is limited to only normal equipment or the masterwork version of any item. At anytime the character uses or benefits from a magic item or a magical effect, he loses the benefits of the class.
To atone, he must seek out and destroy a magic item as described under Magical Sensitivity. He cannot benefit from the atonement spell.

Ability Score increase: Each level, the character gains a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score of his choice. The maximum bonus to a single ability is +5.

Spell Resistance: The character gains Spell Resistance 10 + character levels.

Fast Healing: The character gains the ability to recover the listed amount of hit points every round.

Containment: The ‘thing’ inside you has not yet hatched. Your incredible willpower and determination has protected you until now, but as time goes on, the containment fields around it gradually weaken. You have an intuitive understanding of how to keep this working indefinitely. Each time you level up, you must destroy half your share of party magical items gained during that level and use the energy to strengthen the containment. You are visible to Detect Magic spells with a strong aura of Abjuration, which will increase over time. This aura gives the larva the benefit of a Mind Blank spell at all times.

Magical sensitivity: This has two effects.
1) Close proximity to magical auras can disturb the balance of forces holding the larva in check. When within 5’ of an ongoing magical effect (including magic items) with a caster level more than 5 levels above your own level, you must make a Fortitude save (DC10+Caster level) to avoid being stunned for a round. This takes the form of a tearing pain in your gut as the larva thrashes in the magical flux. If you remain in proximity of this item, whether or not you make the save, you take 2d6 points of subdual damage each round.
2) When you allow yourself to be affected personally by a spell (voluntarily not making a save) you must make a Fortitude save (DC14+caster level) to avoid losing all Forsaker powers for 1d6 days while the binding energies struggle to regain their equilibrium. Note that you must be affected by the spell and not just targeted. The Forsaker powers can be reinstated sooner by destroying an item of caster level equal to your own level and with a minimum value of (1000gp x your level).

Foresight: At level 3 the character can apply his wisdom modifier to his AC. This ability does not stack with other class ability that offers the same benefit. For example the AC bonus from the monk class does not stack with this ability.

Magic Strike (Su): Beginning at 3rd-level, the forsaker can fight as though he and his weapon were one. Your melee attacks are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction/hardness. This ability requires a standard action to activate and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution modifier. You may use this as often as you like.

Damage Reduction: At level 4 you gain Damage Reduction equal to your Con modifier. This functions like the barbarian ability, allowing the character to reduce the damage taken from any melee or range attacks by the listed amount. It stacks with the barbarian ability.

Evasion: This works like the rogue ability.

Improved Sunder: The character gains this feat.

Slippery Mind (Ex): At 6th level, the forsaker can wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel him. if he fails his saving throw against an enchantment effect, he can attempt his saving throw again 1 round later. He gets only one extra chance to succeed at his saving throw.

Mettle: This ability works like the Evasion ability. Except it applies to spells or effects that give a Fort partial or Will partial entry in its description.

Disrupt Item (Ex): At 7th-level, your melee attacks deal double damage to magic objects.

Adamantine Strike (Ex): At 9th-level, your melee attacks are treated as adamantine for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction/hardness. This is an extraordinary ability and does not require activation.

Align Weapon (Su): At 10th-level, you can choose a component of your alignment (Good, Chaotic etc) and your strikes count as that type of damage (and magical) for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. This ability requires a standard action to activate and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution modifier. You may use this as often as you like.

[ericthecleric]

It seems good. Has it been fun and/or balanced for the player and you?

Initially, I thought the DR= Con mod was underpowered. Once he gains the ability, you should probably allow him to take the “Thick Skinned” feat ([i]Savage Species[i]). It improves the “x” number of DR by +2 each time it’s taken, so if it was gained once, his DR would be Con mod +2/-, gaining it twice would be Con mod +4/-, and so on.

[carborundum]

We only play every two weeks so he's only got 2 levels so far, I'm afraid.

My biggest worry is seeing how the healing works out in the long run. On the one hand, with enough rest he's always fit for combat, on the other - he can't heal in a fight. I think it'll work out fine - he'll have to work something out if he's tanking and losing it, maybe switch with a high AC no offence type til he's back on his feet.

There are enough interesting things to keep him involved - now I have to figure out what will happen if he gets killed. Nothing? Big release of force? Possession to get the 'vessel' out of harms way? Some sort of cocoon?

Resurrection magic will be a no-no, maybe I'll cocoon him and charge him a point of CON. Any ideas?

[ericthecleric]

Well, just having looked at the description for raise dead and resurrection, a creature that wants to return from the dead requires no saving throw. However, given that both effects are magical spell effects, his soul would know this, and therefore such attempts should be treated as “subject is unwilling”, in which case a Will save would be required.

If he’s merely unconscious though, I’m not sure what the situation would be; I’m pretty sure I’ve seen rules somewhere about using spells on unconscious and sleeping characters, but I can’t remember if they’d get a saving throw or not.

[carborundum]

I'm more worried about what happens with the Abomination when his life-force stops powering the cage....

[ericthecleric]

For simplicity, assume that residual energies keep the thing contained, for a little while at least- maybe a day or two- ie. enough time for PCs to get to a priest, if necessary. The reason for this is simple. The PC needs to sleep, and the Abomination doesn’t escape when he’s sleeping, right? If the PC died, a few rounds later the thing wouldn’t just burst out of his body in a mass of gore and blood.

[carborundum]

Sounds reasonable, and saves a lot of hassle. Cheers!
And if the player ever wants a new character, there's a great exit waiting in the wings :)

I was also thinking of Naruto style "unleash the fury" revenance style moment if he dies and there's a TPK on the horizon. Have him animated by the Abomination and let him kick ass. (And then penalise him afterwards so he doesn't do it too often :-D)