How does the Charger animal companion archetype interact with the order of the dragon challenge?
I am assuming that bonuses are supposed to round up, since otherwise the horse only gets -1 AC for no benefit at level 1.
So the possibilities as I see it are:
1) Both the cavalier and mount grant a +1 bonus to hit to all their allies. The cavalier and mount also get +1 each since they are presumably allies.
2) Both the cavalier get +1 to hit. Their allies get +2 to hit, since circumstance bonuses stack.
3) None of the above. The horse only gets bonuses from the base challenge. So +1 to hit per 2 levels of the cavalier.
Bump?
I'm not familiar with these particular abilities or their interaction, but the general rule in Pathfinder is always round down. There is also usually a minimum of 1 stated for abilities that could potentially be used a minimum number of O or less.
Order of the Dragon: Allies recieve +1 circumstance melee attack bonus
Mounted Challenge (I'm assuming this is the interaction you meant from the Charge companion archetype): When ridden by a cavalier, chargers gain half of the bonuses and penalties granted by the challenge feature.
To me, it seems clear at level one the horse (companion) gets a +1 melee attack bonus from the Order of the Dragon ability, the horse counts as an ally, and a 0 from the Mounted Challenge ability.
Edit: I think I see the problem you asking about now. I think it's about interpreting what Mounted Challenge does. When I read it the horse does not also provide a bonus to allies, he simply will also get any bonus from the challenge ability. I tihnk this is made more clear by looking at other abilities like the Order of the Cockatrice, in which case the mount would get the melee damage bonus at half the rate the cavalier does.
So, I guess my answer from your original post is option 3.
Does anyone else have an opinion? What about when I get to level 5 and my dragon challenge give a +2 bonus to allies? Does my horse then give a +1 bonus?
You get the better of the two since you cannot benefit from the same ability twice unless specific text states that multiple instances of the same ability stack.
Now, if you ask for a RAW quote there isn't one outside of the magic section regarding spells. It is however a general design principle of Pathfinder.
- Gauss
The same bonus type does not normally stack. Untyped bonuses from the same ability also don't. However circumstance bonuses explicitly do stack. As I understand it, 2 order of the dragon cavaliers would give their party +2 to hit their challenge.
Knight Magenta, I can find nothing in the CRB that states that circumstance bonuses from the same source stack. Could you provide a reference?
Note: I can find that circumstance bonuses stack (in the magic section I referenced earlier) and it references the rules for Combining Magical Effects which goes on to state that bonuses from the same source do not stack. No exception to that is provided for circumstance bonuses.
In short:
Identical bonus types do not stack with the exception of Circumstance and a few others.
Bonuses from the same source also do not stack even in the cases of circumstance and a few others unless an exception in the ability is specifically stated.
These are provided in the Magic section and are referencing magic but many people (myself included) believe they are intended as a general rule regarding bonuses. In conversations with Devs it appears the Devs follow those rules also.
- Gauss
From a RAW point of view, would it be the same source in this case? The abilities are the cavalier's "Challenge (Ex)" and the mount's "Mounted Challenge (Ex)".
Am I right that the challenges of 2 cavaliers would not stack?
Thinking about it, it feels kinda cheesy. It looks like the ability was intended to give a minor buff to the horse, as opposed to the whole party.
I guess it will work like option 1 in my OP. Since the only one not benefiting from my Challenge is me. So I would get the mount's lesser bonus.
My reading is that yes, they are the same source since the Mounted Challenge ability is stating that the mount benefits from the Challenge ability.
BTW, why do you think you do not get the bonus? You are your own ally. You get the bonus. Ally FAQ
- Gauss
Hmmm... I didn't realize. It seems like the intent is that I don't get the bonus. Otherwise, the order of the dragon ability is strictly better than the order of the sword, and pretty much all the other orders.
Perhaps it isnt better when you consider the entire Order.
Compare Dragon vs Sword:
Challenge: Dragon wins (bonus applies to all allies too and is circumstance instead of morale. Pure win.)
Skills: Dragon wins imo due to perception as a class skill
Level 2: Sword wins hands down. Aid Another boost vs +2 to a save? I think save. But, Dragon could be better in specific build situations such as Bodyguard.
Level 8: Strategy vs Mounted Mastery. Kinda a Draw but I lean towards Mounted Mastery since that means the Cavalier can still fight. The 1/combat of Strategy sucks and you cannot fight that round.
Level 15: Act as One vs Knight's Challenge. Assuming you reach level 15 (a rarity) I think Act as One really helps IF there are multiple melee combatants. If you (as cavalier) are the primary melee combatant then Knight's Challenge is superior by far.
Ultimately, Dragon needs multiple combatant allies to make full use of his abilities. But he winds up becoming a supporter rather than a combatant if he uses some of those abilities. Id rather fight. I will take Order of the Sword over Order of the Dragon in most groups.
- Gauss
Ok that's fair. Thanks for clearing all that up Gauss :)