| Ar'ruum |
So, I've got a Sylph Sorcerer(2)/Rogue(1) Elemental Bloodline(Air) with the Magical Knack trait
Air Affinity (Ex) Sylph sorcerers with the elemental (air) bloodline treat their Charisma score as 2 points higher for all sorcerer spells and class abilities. Sylph clerics with the Air domain cast their domain powers and spells at +1 caster level.
Magical Knack: Pick a class when you gain this trait—your caster level in that class gains a +2 trait bonus as long as this bonus doesn’t increase your caster level higher than your current Hit Dice.
Favored Class: Sorcerer: Choose a bloodline power from the djinni or elemental (air) bloodline that the sorcerer can use. The sorcerer treats her class level as though it were +1/2 higher (to a maximum of +4) when determining the effects of that power.
Lastly...
Bloodline Power:Elemental Ray (Sp): Starting at 1st level, you can unleash an elemental ray as a standard action, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. This ray deals 1d6 points of damage of your energy type + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
Caster Level is where I am struggling... His flat caster level is Sorc(2). With Magical Knack, the caster level becomes (Sorc(2) +2)=4 with a limit of the total Hit Die or character level(3). Adding in Favored class bonus of +1/2, whether the CL is figured at 2 or 3, the bonus should be +1 for a effective caster level of 4, resulting in an Elemental Ray that does 1d6+2 dmg.
If another level of Sorcerer is gained this would become Sorc(3)+2 (with a limit of 4) +(1/2 levels *4) resulting in 1d6+4?
OR
If another level of Rogue is gained this would become Sorc(2)+2 (with a limit of 4) +1/2 levels * 4) also resulting in 1d6+4?
Ultimately, I'm looking for validation. I THINK I understand how it's all supposed to come together, but it's a little confusing.
| j b 200 |
I don't think magical knack increases your bloodline power. MK increases your caster level, but the bloodline power is based on your sorcerer level, not the same thing.
You can see it in the different language for Magical Knack and the Favored Class option. One says "caster level" and the other says "effective sorcerer level."
For your spells your caster level is 2 from sorcerer and 1 from magical knack and rogue HD = 3. For your bloodline power, your effective sorcerer level is 2 (sorcerer)+ 1.5 (3 levels of favored class)= 3 (rounding down) so your damage is 1d6+1.
| Xaratherus |
I think an argument could be made that because Magical Knack increases your caster level in a specific class only that it is effectively equivalent to your "sorcerer level".
Now, if you were a cross-class sorcerer-wizard, and you had taken Magical Knack for Wizard, then it definitely would not, but...
anthonydido
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accept that MK specifically says caster level. My selected caster class is sorcerer... It can't be rogue caster level can it?
MK raises your caster level, not your class level. Your bloodline powers are based off of your class level, not your caster level. They are 2 different things.
Here's an example. Say we have a character that is Sorcerer 2/Cleric 4. That character takes MK and selects Cleric as his class that it applies to. He is CL2 for his sorcerer class and CL6 for his cleric class. But he is still level 6 (2/4). Does that help clarify a bit?
DesolateHarmony
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For your spells your caster level is 2 from sorcerer and 1 from magical knack and rogue HD = 3. For your bloodline power, your effective sorcerer level is 2 (sorcerer)+ 1.5 (3 levels of favored class)= 3 (rounding down) so your damage is 1d6+1.
accept that MK specifically says caster level. My selected caster class is sorcerer... It can't be rogue caster level can it?
The reference to rogue from jb has to do with your total hit dice, to provide the cap for magical knack. So your caster level is raised to three by that trait. The favored class option raises your sorcerer level for the bloodline power. The numbers that jb gave are good.
At sixth level, with sorcerer (4)/rogue (2), you would have a caster level of 6th, and an effective sorcerer level for that bloodline power of 6th.
| Dark Netwerk |
"Caster level" is different from "Class level".
Magical knack raises "caster level" which has an effect with spellcasting.
Air affinity raises Charisma which has an effect on spell DCs, bonus spells, and bloodline abilities.
The favored class thing raises "character level" in relation to a specific bloodline power.
Magical knack has no effect on the Elemental Ray (or any other bloodline power) since they are not spells but supernatural or spell-like abilities and have no "caster level".
Air affinity would net you an extra use of the Elemental Ray (since it's calculated as 3+CHA).
The favored class (with 2 levels of sorcerer) would add 1 to your sorcerer level in the calculation of Elemental Ray. Unfortunately, you're only 2nd level. Being considered 3rd level in the Elemental Ray doesn't resulat in any difference since it's 1d6 +1 per 2 levels (and we always round down unless otherwise specified). So 1d6 at level 1, 1d6+1 at levels 2 and 3, and so on.
EDIT: Ninjaed by everyone.
| Xaratherus |
I can see arguments in both directions. Reading back over some previous posts on the matter, and re-reading all the relevant abilities, from an RAW perspective Magical Knack probably would not increase your bloodline powers.
From a table rule perspective, I would probably allow your alterations to your caster level in a particular class to equate to sorcerer levels in this instance - but that would be a house rule, not RAW (or probably even RAI).
| DM_Blake |
Yes, that would get full benefit of Magical Knack, but as a rule, spellcasters get more and more powerful as they level up in their spellcasting class while multiclassing them makes them weaker.
In almost every conceivable way, a Sorcerer 20 is far more powerful than a Sorcerer 18/Rogue 2, and that is true at pretty much any level above about level 5.
Or to put it another way, yeah, you can get more benefit from one feat by taking a level of rogue, but the price you ultimately pay is losing a whole level of sorcerer spellcasting.
If you're doing it for RP reasons, awesome, but then there is no need to consider whether or not you're optimizing the Magical Knack feat. So if you're doing it from an optimizing perspective, I'd say stick with sorcerer.
| Ar'ruum |
not so ninja's ... it all wraps into a better explanation... they just had to use CL as caster level didn't they... and somehow Hit Dice = Character Level... <rolleyes>
quibbling over +1 dmg, also seems petty to me, but I'm trying to understand the system as much as the points. I'm working on gaining level 3, and it sounds like I'd be much better off taking another level of rogue, getting the evasion and rogue talent, then progress as a sorcerer...
Thanks for the explanation...
desolate, I think you meant Caster Level of 6, sorc level of 6?
Yeah, I knew rogue wouldn't benefit at all from magical knack, which WAS supporting my thought that the sorcerer level would effectively be +2 etc...
I suppose taking the rogue talent Minor Magic would simply give me a limited use cantrip? Would that benefit from my sorcerer levels? Or would it be completely redundant?
| j b 200 |
I can see arguments in both directions. Reading back over some previous posts on the matter, and re-reading all the relevant abilities, from an RAW perspective Magical Knack probably would not increase your bloodline powers.
From a table rule perspective, I would probably allow your alterations to your caster level in a particular class to equate to sorcerer levels in this instance - but that would be a house rule, not RAW (or probably even RAI).
Caster level and Class level are completely independent from one another. 2 examples:
1) A Ranger or Paladin has a class level of 5 but a caster level of only 2.2) A better argument is if you look at prestige classes. Dragon Disciple and Arcane Archer both increase your caster level but not your class level, therefore a Sorcerer 8/Arcane Archer 5 has a Caster level of 11, but their bloodline powers are at class level 8.
| mplindustries |
Just to clarify, at Sorcerer 2/Rogue 1, your caster level is 3, and you deal 1d6+1 damage with your ray, because you are treated as a 3rd level sorcerer.
At Sorcerer 3/Rogue 1, your caster level is 4, and you deal 1d6+2 with your ray because you are treated as a 4th level sorcerer.
At Sorcerer 8/Rogue 1 (when you reach maximum effectiveness for your favored class bonus), your caster level will be 9 and your ray will deal 1d6+6 because you will be treated as a 12th level sorcerer.
Caster level and class level are different, and Magical Knack does not affect anything reliant on class level, only things reliant on caster level.
| Ar'ruum |
wait so your caster level equals your total character level? I thought your caster level was only related to your level in the casting class? Even then some didn't mix, like Cleric(2)/Sorcerer(4) the caster level wouldn't be 6 because they are different types... as explained in this explanation:
Your Level, when in a class description is your Class Level; in almost all other places, it's your Character Level.
Character Level is the sum of all your Class levels, plus any racial adjustment if importing D20 races with Level adjustments. (IIRC, Pathfinder doesn't use level adjustments; all they are is a class that can't be raised.)
Class Level is the number of times you've increased that particular class, including the one level you start the game with. It only affects that particular class, normally
Caster Level is the total class levels of all classes using the same type of magic.
Or this explanation from paizo's website
Caster Level
A spell's power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell.
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
In the event that a class feature or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt), but also to your caster level check to overcome your target's spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).
In your examples (assuming magic knack was in place the sorc(8)/rogue(1) would be caster level 9 since the limit is your Hit Dice, which is your total character level. Right?
| Avianfoo |
More or less correct.
More examples: all characters have reached character level 9:
sorc(8)/rogue(1) with Magical Knack = caster level 8+2=10 but capped at 9 in sorc
sorc(6)/rogue(3) with Magical Knack = caster level 6+2=8 in sorc.
sorc(3)/cleric(6) with magical Knack for cleric = caster level 6+2=8 for cleric and caster level 3 for sorc. Thats 2 different caster levels because of 2 different casting classes.
sorc(1)/cleric(8) with MK for cleric = caster level 9 for cleric and caster level 1 for sorc.
| mplindustries |
wait so your caster level equals your total character level?
No, but you have Magical Knack, so you get +2 CL up to your HD. A Sorcerer 8/Rogue 1 has CL 8 normally, and 9 with Magical Knack. A Sorcerer 8/Rogue 3 has CL 8 normally, and 10 with Magical Knack.
I thought your caster level was only related to your level in the casting class? Even then some didn't mix, like Cleric(2)/Sorcerer(4) the caster level wouldn't be 6 because they are different types
Correct, you'd have a Cleric caster level of 2, and a Sorcerer caster level of 4. If you took Magical Knack for Cleric, your caster level for both classes would be 4. If you took Magical Knack for Sorcerer, you'd have CL 2 for Cleric, and CL 6 for Sorcerer.
The Fox
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Just in case this isn't clear, the increase in caster level from Magical Knack also does not grant any other benefits that you gain from an increase in your class level. In particular, gaining a level of rogue will not grant you spells. You will still know as many spells and cast as many spells per day as any other 2nd-level sorcerer.