Not another or just another rogue fix, but the best one! (At least I think so.)
So here are my ideas on making the rogue more valuable to the party. I went with the idea that changes should be as minor as possible. No radical re-writes. Comments are in italics
Bonus Feats: At 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a rogue gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, she can choose a Skill Focus feat, or Acrobatic, Alertness, Animal Affinity, Athletic, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Magical Aptitude, Persuasive, Self-Sufficient, and Stealthy. These bonus feats are in addition to the feats that a character of any class gets from advancing levels.
This is to help the rogue maintain her place as the master of skills.
Critical Sneak Attack: Starting at 1st level a Rogue gains the ability to deal a Sneak Attack on a critical hit. When a Rogue scores a critical hit with a one-handed light or finesse weapon or a ranged weapon they add their Sneak Attack dice from Rogue levels (and only Rogue levels). These extra dice are in addition to any Sneak Attack dice they are eligible for, such as flanking or the target being flat-footed.
I don't think the rogue needs to hit more often, she just needs to do more damage when she does. That is the whole idea behind Sneak Attack in the first place. This also makes critical hits worth something to the rogue.
Defensive Combat Training: Rogues gain Defensive Combat Training as a bonus feat at 3rd level.
Rogues should be a master of avoidance. The last thing they want to do is be caught or knocked down.
Dirty Infighting: At 7th level a Rogue masters the art of fighting dirty. When using a Dirty Trick, Steal or Trip combat maneuver the Rogue’s base attack bonus from his Rogue class levels is equal to his Rogue level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the Rogue uses his normal base attack bonus.
These maneuvers just seem iconic for a rogue, why shouldn't they be better at it?
Rogue Talents
All Rogue talents, with the exception of Minor and Major Magic, that are limited to a certain number of times per day are increased to a minimum of 3 times per day, plus they gain the following special rule:
Special: A rogue can use this ability one additional time per day for every 5 rogue levels she possesses.
The "Special" addition is for rogues ONLY! Anyone else that takes a rogue talent does not get the extra uses. Apparently everyone else is already better than a rogue, so screw them! ;)
Canny Observer (Ex)
Benefit: When a rogue with this talent makes a Perception check to hear sounds behind a door (or other barrier) or the details of a conversation or to find concealed or secret objects (including doors and traps), she gains a +4 bonus.
Special: A rogue that takes this talent also gains an additional +1 to her perception check for every 3 rogue levels she possesses.
Yep, the "Special" is rogue only. They should be the best at this stuff.
Minor Magic (Sp)
Prerequisite: Intelligence 10
Benefit: A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast three 0-level spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. These spells can be cast at will as a spell-like ability. The rogue may only use this talent to cast his three 0-level spells up to 6 times per day, plus one additional time per 5 rogue levels she possesses. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. The save DC for this spell is 10 + the rogue's Intelligence modifier.
Major Magic (Sp)
Prerequisite: Intelligence 11, minor magic rogue talent
Benefit: A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast two 1st level spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. These spells can be cast at will as a spell-like ability. The rogue may only use this talent to cast his two 1st level spells up to 3 times per day, plus one additional time per 5 rogue levels she possesses. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. The save DC for this spell is 10 + the rogue's Intelligence modifier.
Powerful Sneak (Ex)
Benefit: Whenever a rogue with this talent takes a full attack action, she can elect to take a –2 penalty on all attack rolls until the start of her next turn. If an attack during this time is a sneak attack, she adds +1 damage to every sneak attack die rolled.
Stand Up (Ex)
Benefit: A rogue with this ability can stand up from a prone position as a free action. This still provokes attacks of opportunity for standing up while threatened by a foe unless the rogue can succeed in an Acrobatics check. The base DC is equal to the Combat Maneuver Defence of the opponents threatening her. The roll is made once and then compared to each opponent.
Rogue Advanced Talents
Deadly Sneak (Ex)
Prerequisite: Advanced talents, powerful sneak rogue talent
Benefit: Whenever a rogue with this talent uses the powerful sneak rogue talent, she adds +2 damage to every sneak attack die rolled.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex)
Prerequisite: Advanced talents
Benefit: A rogue with this talent can select three terrains from the ranger’s favored terrain list. She is a master at hiding in these terrains, and while within those terrains, she can use the Stealth skill to hide, even while being observed.
Special: A rogue may take this advanced talent more than once, each time selecting three different terrains from the favored terrain list.
Slippery Mind (Ex)
Prerequisite: Advanced talents
Benefit: This ability represents the rogue's ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again with a +4 bonus 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw.
Love it all! I may incorporate some (most) of it in my own fixes. The free skill based feats seem meh, but I understand the why behind it.
Shameless spoiler plug alert!
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pong?Just-another-Rogue-Fix-thread
Yes, the bonus feats are not terribly exciting, but they allow the rogue to take them without sacrificing feats that could be spent to enhance their combat. If other classes want to equal them in skills, they will have to sacrifice one of their own precious feats that could have been used to boost their combat or other abilities.
Your Rogue fix thread (along with the others) was the reason I decided to post my own house rules to fix the rogue.
One tick, your major magic talent has the 1st lvl spells at will and 3x/day... Minor thing, that, though
I linked your thread in mine, hope you don't mind. Bravo, sir!
How about making the bonus feats happen at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18? This puts the rogue's bonus feats in the same pattern as ranger and monk bonus feats. Not a huge thing, but it's "aesthetically pleasing" (to me anyway). Otherwise, the whole thing looks great!
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Hmm, interesting ideas. I like the idea of basically having full BAB on maneuvers, but not so much on regular attacks. That fits nicely with the idea of rogues as fighting smart, not heavy.
It brings up a tricky matter though: maneuver feats. How is the rogue supposed to get them? They tend to hide behind Combat Expertise. Should maneuver feats be available as rogue talents, or should maybe Combat Expertise be a rogue talent? Or should they be included in the list of bonus feats? Although I'm afraid they might overshadow the skill feats.
Bonus feats to bring out the skill monkey (better than the bard) is also good stuff.
I'm not so much of a fan of the "this rogue power does more if you're actually a rogue", I feel that goes against the flexibility of the game system in designing new classes/archetypes. You should be getting more of those powers because you're actually a rogue, so you should already be ahead.
In fact, I prefer the opposite approach: rogues should be stealing features from other classes, instead of trying to hoard their own. Once upon a time UMD was something mainly done by rogues pretending to be wizards; I feel we've lost of that idea but should get it back.
Your take on critical hits is interesting; I haven't seen it done this way before. Does that mean that a critical hit on a regular flanking attack deals double sneak attack damage? Otherwise it still seems like a sort of consolation prize for not getting flanking. Anyway, I definitely agree that rogues should be a crit-seeking class.
Goblin, his matches the wizard progression.
That's it exactly, I do kinda like the 2, 6, 10, 14, 18 progression though.
The boost to the rogue would be nice, but the idea that other people take the exact same talent and don't get it smack of arbitrary favoritism.
The thing is all of the rogue abilities have been given to other classes or archtypes. You will note that I do improve a lot of the talents for everybody by making them a minimum of 3 times per day. The rogue just gets a few extra uses. It is pretty much accepted that every class that these abilities were given too do it better than a rogue does now. What is the point of making the rogue better if you make everyone else that much better as well?
As for the Canny Observer, giving the Rogue a +1 to +6 bonus still makes them only slightly worse than an archeologist bard that takes the talent. (I would refer you to the immensely over-powered and potentially game breaking Clever Explorer ability of the archaeologist.)
Still I enjoy the critical hit sneak attack idea, if not only from rogue levels.
I am not modifying sneak attack. I am adding an ability that rogues get that give them sneak attack damage on a critical hit, and it stacks with their regular sneak attack. If you really want to give it to other classes then you can add the ability to those classes as well. But remember, all of those classes are already seen as more powerful than the rogue. Do they really need the boost in power? And if they are boosted, does that mean that the rogue will still be worse at what they do than the classes and archetypes that steal their abilities?
The rewrites on deadly sneak may be a bit over the top tbh. The original 2 combined only increased your sneak damage by .5/die. You've quadrupled that to 2/die and removed the =2.
Oops. I left out the -2 on deadly sneak. It is supposed to still be there. That said it still might be a little too much, especially since I added the critical sneak attack ability. I am still thinking on the appropriate fix for those talents. They definitely need something.
In my opinion having the rogue be equivalent as a skill monkey or combat master would be nice, but setting them above and apart from everyone else naturally reeks of favoritism. Its like saying the fighter should be the best fighter because he's the oldest class. He isn't, but he can perform on levels where he's at least functional and relevant and that should be what matters, not saying this class should be the best.
just my opinion. Enjoy your homegame and good luck.
If you look at the Stunning Fist feat you will see that monks get more out of it than everyone else. That is exactly the formula I am following with rogue talents. Rogues get more out of rogue talents than anyone else.
Trying to avoid favoritism is exactly what got the rogue in trouble in the first place. They gave away everything a rogue could do to other classes and all of a sudden there is nothing a rogue can do that some other class can't do better. That needs to get fixed. How are you going to fix it if you don't give them something that some other class can't do, and do better?
Even after all of the fixes I proposed above, I still don't think the rogue will be best at anything. They can do a few things more often, but that's it. The extra sneak attack will still mean that they do less damage around, it just won't be so bad that it's worthless.
Hmm, interesting ideas. I like the idea of basically having full BAB on maneuvers, but not so much on regular attacks. That fits nicely with the idea of rogues as fighting smart, not heavy.
It brings up a tricky matter though: maneuver feats. How is the rogue supposed to get them? They tend to hide behind Combat Expertise. Should maneuver feats be available as rogue talents, or should maybe Combat Expertise be a rogue talent? Or should they be included in the list of bonus feats? Although I'm afraid they might overshadow the skill feats.
They can already get Improved Steal as a talent. Adding the other feats as talents is possible, with maybe the Greater variants available as an advanced talent.
Bonus feats to bring out the skill monkey (better than the bard) is also good stuff.
Thanks. I got the idea when working on my skill-monkey rogue build. The skill feats are actually really good, but they cut into the feats available to a rogue for combat ability. The solution seemed simple... Give it to them for free!
I'm not so much of a fan of the "this rogue power does more if you're actually a rogue", I feel that goes against the flexibility of the game system in designing new classes/archetypes. You should be getting more of those powers because you're actually a rogue, so you should already be ahead.
But really none of the changes I have made makes a rogue better at using the talents than anyone else with the same talent, they can just do it a little more often (probably 2 or 3 times a day). The exception of Canny Observer is in direct response to the Clever Explorer ability which is still better. If the archeologist bard could get the full bonus from Canny Observer it would just be stupid. The DC to challenge him at high levels would have to be +20 above anything anyone else can obtain instead of the +14 it is now.
In fact, I prefer the opposite approach: rogues should be stealing features from other classes, instead of trying to hoard their own. Once upon a time UMD was something mainly done by rogues pretending to be wizards; I feel we've lost of that idea but should get it back.
I agree with this. The rogue should be able to emulate other classes abilities. They get a little bit of this with the Favored Terrain talent (to get that from the ranger), but there could certainly be more of this.
Your take on critical hits is interesting; I haven't seen it done this way before. Does that mean that a critical hit on a regular flanking attack deals double sneak attack damage? Otherwise it still seems like a sort of consolation prize for not getting flanking. Anyway, I definitely agree that rogues should be a crit-seeking class.
Yes, they would do double sneak attack damage when they get a critical hit when flanking and such, which would still be are less damage than a fighter or raging barbarian would do on a critical hit. But it does give the rogue some reason to celebrate over getting a critical hit. (I have actually witnessed a rogue player just shrug when getting a critical threat and not really caring at all if the crit was confirmed. That is just wrong.)
It is indeed a bit of a consolation prize. As for the reason for allowing it, the idea came from the various "burst" properties of magical weapons. They do extra dice on a critcal hit, so it is not like adding extra dice on a critcal hit has not been done before.
Many excellent points...
I pretty much agree with everything you have said here. I don't know if a rewrite is necessary for the entire rogue class, but a rewrite of their talents to bring them in line with the usefulness of rage powers would be appropriate.
Giving the rogue clever explorer instead of trapfinding would go a long way towards making them not fail quite as hard compared to the archeologist when dealing with traps and such.
A bonus to hit when sneak attacking is one way to help. I went a different way, but it is no less valid.
What if you just say a rogue never loses trapfinding, even if he takes an archetype. Also a rogue who doesnt take an aechetype can select any one archetype's skill that would have replaced his trap finding skill from any of of the archetypes. Consider it mostly a flavor buff, and revalidating the archetypes so the rogue does not lose his niche so to speak.
I would play this rogue, Lord Twig, and I don't think it would decrease fun for ANYONE at the table. So good job!