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So I have a 3rd-level magus player in my Rise of the Runelords game I'm running right now that tore a boss a new one with a single, lucky crit, and I want to make sure I ruled everything correctly. He's a bladebound magus, so he's just got his black blade. First the before-the-round stuff:
Magus info:
1) 3rd-level bladebound magus (half-elf)
2) +2 Str mod
3) Weapon used: katana (with Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use it one-handed)
Before the round, the magus had:
1) Used an arcane pool point to add an additional +1 enhancement bonus to his weapon, making it a +2 weapon for a minute.
2) Had cast chill touch and had already expended 1 "charge" of it, but still had some left stored up to use with his sword for the upcoming round.
Now for the pain round:
1) Spent a swift action to activate his Arcane Strike feat.
2) Spent a standard action to activate his pool strike magus arcana.
3) Used a move action to move adjacent to the boss.
4) Used spellstrike in conjunction with his pool strike to deliver the attack as a free action (free, because he had used pool strike that round).
AND HE CRITS!
Now, because pool strike is not a spell, but is rather a supernatural ability, it doesn't end chill touch's remaining uses, so the two are stacked on top of one another in the blade (making a very cool visual effect of a cosmetically frosted black blade crackling with electricity). Pool strike's damage isn't listed as being precision damage, and it wasn't extra damage dice brought on by a weapon property, so we ruled it gets doubled, too, like a spell. So, here's how I calculated damage:
1) Double +2 katana damage with double Str (+2) = 2d8 + 8 slashing
2) Double pool strike (electricity) damage = 4d6 electricity
3) Double chill touch damage w/ failed Fort save = 2d6 + (2 Str damage)
4) Arcane Strike feat = 1 damage (yes, i only realize now that this should have been doubled as well, but we forgot to)
TOTAL DAMAGE: 2d8+9 plus 4d6 electricity plus 2d6 negative energy plus 2 Str dmg
Was I correct?
Note: I just realized that he could have technically done all this while gripping his katana two-handed, since spell combat hadn't been used this round
That all looks right to me.
Pool Strike with spellstrike acts like a shocking grasp that does less damage and does different elements, as far as I'm concerned, so critting with it should double the damage dice just like it would for a spell.
Chill Touch is a spell that gets cast once and then lets you spellstrike with it a number of times up to your level - it's still a spell that you're spellstriking with each round, not a bonus +1d6 on your weapon like flaming. I do believe that if you cast another spell it ends the Chill Touch, per the rules for holding the charge on a touch spell. I don't think Pool Strike (a Su ability) would count for that, though it's arguable.
So yeah, 2d8+10 magical slashing + 4d6 electricity + 2d6 negative energy + 2 Strength looks right to me. That's an extremely optimal situation for a magus, but it's what they do.
That's an average damage in those circumstances of 40 + 2 Str.
For comparison, a raging barbarian in the same circumstances could easily be doing...
3d12 damage (base for greataxe crit)
+30 from Str (20 base, +4 rage = +7 Str modifier * 1.5 for 2H weapon * 3 for x3 crit)
+9 (Power Attack -1 attack/+3 damage for 2H weapon * 3 for crit)
+3 (+1 weapon * 3 for crit)
3d12+42, average crit is 62.5 damage
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I'm curious, how does he have pool strike? As a blade bound magus he gave up his third level arcana, and since he doesn't have an arcana he can't take extra arcana.
WHOA!!!!!!! All the facepalms there ever were! We did not read properly and only reduced his arcane pool point total. Oh, he is NOT going to be happy.
I'm curious, how does he have pool strike? As a blade bound magus he gave up his third level arcana, and since he doesn't have an arcana he can't take extra arcana.
Is there a ruling that replacing the 3rd-level arcana means you don't count as having the class feature until 6th? I'm not trying to be snarky, I just want to know (I love the class, and I have a bunch of provisional builds, one of which would have to be reworked if I couldn't take the feat until 6th).
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I'm curious, how does he have pool strike? As a blade bound magus he gave up his third level arcana, and since he doesn't have an arcana he can't take extra arcana.Is there a ruling that replacing the 3rd-level arcana means you don't count as having the class feature until 6th? I'm not trying to be snarky, I just want to know (I love the class, and I have a bunch of provisional builds, one of which would have to be reworked if I couldn't take the feat until 6th).
I'm not sure if there was anything said, it seems pretty obvious IMHO. The wording "This ability changes the Arcane Pool class feature and replaces the magus arcana gained at 3rd level" makes it seem like he doesn't have the feature until sixth, since the ability was replaced. On the same hand, I don't think the evangelist cleric has access to selective channel until third level, when he actually gains the ability. I could be wrong though.
Short story, if one were a stickler for the rules (and I don't advocate it at all) spellstrike only works when a person is initally casting a spell. If you are not longer casting the spell, then spellstrike does not apply.
My two cents anyway. I have never seen this question asked before so maybe there is a clarification on the rules as intended somewhere which cuts against what I believe to be the plain language.
A magus wielding a melee weapon will deliver whatever held touch spell\charge upon a successful hit during any round. If a magus casts a touch spell and then misses with both the free touch\melee attack and their standard attack that round, upon hitting an enemy in any subsequent round (assuming that he has not cast another spell or actively touched anything other than his weapon) then the spell discharges.
Here is a great guide Grick wrote up to touch spells and magus interaction.
Now, back to the original question - yes, it looks to me like you figured everything up correctly on the damage. The only gray areas would be on doubling pool strike and arcane strike, but since they are not precision damage I would guess they probably double as normal.
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I'll see if I can find the post but (I think it was) SKR clarified: You are not considered to have a particular class feature until you reach the level where you actually gain that feature; until that time you cannot qualify for feats that list that as a prerequisite.
Question -
Can you stack Pool Strike with a charged spell?I know you can't hold a 'charge' if you cast a new spell but does Pool Strike count as a spell?
As stated in the example, pool strike isnt a spell, so it neither cancels nor is canceled by the casting of another spell.
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I just discovered a BIG detriment to the bladebound archetype. Apparently the enhancement bonuses the blade gets for free as you level is where the blade's upgrades stop. Apparently, as per JJ in his *Ask him ALL your questions* thread, black blades can't be further enhanced with permanent weapon properties like normal magic weapons, such as with keen or flaming, as it relies solely on the expending of pool points to imbue those properties into the blade. In essence, the blade is more of an artifact than a magic item, since artifacts can't be upgraded with enhancements
Emphasis Added
So my point is that RAW says that spellstrike (discharging the spell through your weapon) is used when you cast the spell. It does not say that the remaining charges left from the spell that is cast is placed into the melee weapon. Therefore, you guys are making a leap in logic to assume that in the later rounds chill touch can continue to be discharged through the melee weapon.
Obviously, chill touch can continue to be discharged as a touch attack in later rounds if there are still charges left. However, spellstrike based on the RAW is only useable at the time that the spell is casted.
This was clarified in the faq as part of another question:
Magus: Can a magus use spellstrike (page 10) to cast a touch spell, move, and make a melee attack with a weapon to deliver the touch spell, all in the same round?
Yes. Other than deploying the spell with a melee weapon attack instead of a melee touch attack, the magus spellstrike ability doesn’t change the normal rules for using touch spells in combat (Core Rulebook page 185). So, just like casting a touch spell, a magus could use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, take a move toward an enemy, then (as a free action) make a melee attack with his weapon to deliver the spell.
On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell. However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal.
Basically, the spellstrike gives the magus more options when it comes to delivering touch spells; it’s not supposed to make it more difficult for the magus to use touch spells.
Spell strike allows you to deliver touch spells with weapons and it follows all the normal rules that go along with that. Including using it on subsequent rounds with held charges.
I just discovered a BIG detriment to the bladebound archetype. Apparently the enhancement bonuses the blade gets for free as you level is where the blade's upgrades stop. Apparently, as per JJ in his *Ask him ALL your questions* thread, black blades can't be further enhanced with permanent weapon properties like normal magic weapons, such as with keen or flaming, as it relies solely on the expending of pool points to imbue those properties into the blade. In essence, the blade is more of an artifact than a magic item, since artifacts can't be upgraded with enhancements
Note that JJ has since been asked to stop answering questions about actual game mechanics since sometimes his interpretation (how he runs things) doesn't line up with the actual intent of the design team, but is taken as Word of God on how something's supposed to work (even though he doesn't intend it that way).
I think this particular bit was answered in another FAQ somewhere.
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I'll see if I can find the post but (I think it was) SKR clarified: You are not considered to have a particular class feature until you reach the level where you actually gain that feature; until that time you cannot qualify for feats that list that as a prerequisite.
I recall that quote, as it was to me, however I respectfully disagreed as all the other classes whose archetypes get a delayed class ability have it specified. In this case, it simply replaces the arcana gained.
And it really screws over the bladebound kensei combo, who wouldn't be getting any arcana until 9th level... (that combo is good, but not that good...)
I don't see anything in the Kensai archetype about losing his 6th level Arcana.
Can you cite the relevant piece of the rules?thanks.
The question I ask is can you spellstrike two different magics at the same time? I would say no, you can have either the chill touch or the pool strike but not both.
I agree about not having the arcana at thrid or qualifying for the feat.
Lastly, where does the +2 strength to chill touch come from?
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I just discovered a BIG detriment to the bladebound archetype. Apparently the enhancement bonuses the blade gets for free as you level is where the blade's upgrades stop. Apparently, as per JJ in his *Ask him ALL your questions* thread, black blades can't be further enhanced with permanent weapon properties like normal magic weapons, such as with keen or flaming, as it relies solely on the expending of pool points to imbue those properties into the blade. In essence, the blade is more of an artifact than a magic item, since artifacts can't be upgraded with enhancementsNote that JJ has since been asked to stop answering questions about actual game mechanics since sometimes his interpretation (how he runs things) doesn't line up with the actual intent of the design team, but is taken as Word of God on how something's supposed to work (even though he doesn't intend it that way).
I think this particular bit was answered in another FAQ somewhere.
I just checked the FAQ and this particular question was never answered. I'm inclined to rule in favor of JJ's original post because since you're getting enhancement bonuses for free to the blade when you level up, it actually hurts you to add basic weapon properties later in your adventuring career as your blade will be a higher bonus, and thus it will cost more. For example, it would cost 6,000 gp to add keen to your blade at 3rd level, but would cost 10,000 gp to add it at 9th level. That kind of inconsistency makes me rule in favor of JJ's ruling for two reasons: 1) It simplifies matters and prevents cheesy meta-gamers from loading their blade with weapon properties as soon as possible, or hindering their experience gain in favor of robbing everyone they can, and 2) In the past when similar things like this have arisen, Paizo takes the path of least resistance and rules that it simply can't be done when they make errata for this.
The question I ask is can you spellstrike two different magics at the same time? I would say no, you can have either the chill touch or the pool strike but not both.
I agree about not having the arcana at thrid or qualifying for the feat.
Lastly, where does the +2 strength to chill touch come from?
"Magic" is not limited. "Spells" are for the purpose of this ability. PF knows that not all magic includes spells, which is why they singled out spells. They could have easily said "any magical effect".
That means there might be an actual reason to take pool strike. I like it!
RAW, touch spell rules specifically state that the spell dissipates if you cast another spell. Therefore, unless the text of a (Su) or (Ex) ability specifically states that it counts as a spell for purposes of touch spell 'charge holding', it should be assumed they can be used in conjunction.
So yes, a magus can serve up pain sundae made with an empowered intensified shocking grasp, some hot pool strike sauce, and an arcane strike cherry on top.
Yeah, when I played a magus and I knew there was going to be a big fight, I'd pre-cast vampiric touch and use pool strike for a big alpha hit.
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RAW, touch spell rules specifically state that the spell dissipates if you cast another spell. Therefore, unless the text of a (Su) or (Ex) ability specifically states that it counts as a spell for purposes of touch spell 'charge holding', it should be assumed they can be used in conjunction.
So yes, a magus can serve up pain sundae made with an empowered intensified shocking grasp, some hot pool strike sauce, and an arcane strike cherry on top.
Not to mention if they spent a pool point to load their blade up with magical properties, since they could have done that in earlier rounds as it lasts a full minute, and if they're a black blade, they can spend a point from their black blade's pool to boost that damage even higher still, as doing that's a free action.