Magus Black blade chart clearification and weapon enhancement


Rules Questions


question 1: the black blade magus has in the progression chart listing enchantment is this a perminate enchantment bonus on the blade or is that just a tracker for the black blade strike?

question 2: Would applying the intelligent weapon modifiers tables to upgrade the stats of the black blade weapon be a good and fair way for player to customize the blade to meet their idea of companion. Since the progression says that the stats +1 every 2 levels.

Paying the cost to up the intelligence, wisdom, and charasma, or communication and senses.
only after the weapon evolves upto atlease a 10

Or add more senses and communications. But limit access to other powers.

If the enchantment listed in the chart is not perminate. Then allowing a limited enchantment up to 1/3 'Blade Blade Magus' levels (not any other classes regardless of what they say), max of +5 Either attack/damage mod, or special abilities, but once done can not be undone, to allow the characters to survive more then one or two fights before running out of power and needing a back up weapon to keep going.

This enchantment would be done as a Ritual (that would be like having the craft magic arms and armor, but only for the black blade) requiring the GP value in diamonds and a day per 1000 GP.

the standard of +10 to weapon limit would apply to any non-epic character.

but, I was thinking since it is a bonded companion that the standard +5 attack/damage mod, would be lifted to the magus level

Ofcourse the ego goes up and would add to the gaming experience.

It would be a gamble of how much do you think you can handle.

to give an example of what im talking about:

A 10 level Black Blade
would normally have:
INT 14
WIS/CHA 10
Ego 12

BUT
if the player decides they want a better companion and sends every GP he can to up the adding +3 INT (11 to 14) and +4 EGO.
Adding to the senses Dark vision and extending the vision to 60ft (1000 gp) +1 EGO
making the weapon at 4th level
INT 14
WIS/CHA 7
EGO 10

then after a while of adventuring
the weapon at 10 level allowing for a +3 perminate enchantment
so adding a +3 enchantment 18000 GP to the base weapon price (what every the player decided) +3 ego
so the weapon would have
INT 17
WIS/CHA 10
EGO 20

now this is not a difficult weapon to control but it would be the player decision to take the risk of not doing what ever the weapons mission or missions are.

OK, now with that said im not looking for if you would or would not allow this in you game, im asking if this is a fair way of making a rule for what many are constianly asking. As it would be an option the player would have a choice. I would prefer an offical response from Paizo as i have asked James Jacobs and he recommended putting this on rules and FAQ board.


GMonkey wrote:
question 1: the black blade magus has in the progression chart listing enchantment is this a perminate enchantment bonus on the blade or is that just a tracker for the black blade strike?

It's a permanent enhancement bonus.

Quote:
question 2: Would applying the intelligent weapon modifiers tables to upgrade the stats of the black blade weapon be a good and fair way for player to customize the blade to meet their idea of companion. Since the progression says that the stats +1 every 2 levels.

Whether or not a Black Blade even can be enchanted is a hotly debated topic, and as of right now the answer from James Jacobs (which isn't a FAQ or errata, but still a developer opinion) is that the default state of a Black Blade is that it cannot be enchanted unless your GM says it can.


It's pretty unclear how to handle it, the main issue is costing of stacking enchants and if/when the BB 'grows' more powers with level after you add an enchant.

Personally, I would allow enchants with the caveat that when you level up, either the new BB powers or the enchant you added will 'interfere' with each other and 'cancel out' unless and until you pay for additional enchanting upgrading to allow the added enchantment to co-exist with the higher powerlevel of the levelled-up BB. I guess you could choose at time of enchantment whether the enchantment over-rides any new abilities, or vice-versa.


I personally liked a combination of a few ideas that were posited in the other thread on BB enchanting. Treat it as a +5 before adding anything else, and treat it as an Arcane Bond item and let the Magus craft on it as if he had CMA&A at 5th (or require that he have CMA&A, whichever). But considering that it pretends to be a masterwork weapon when anyone else holds it, I'd require that the Magus has to be involved in the crafting process as the primary crafter (in other words, the one making the Spellcraft check).

But that's all house rule personal interpretation "how I would run it" which is still fun to talk about anyway so I'm totally not going to rain on anyone's parade.

Grand Lodge

GMonkey wrote:

question 1: The Bladebound Magus has in the progression chart listing enchantment is this a permanent enchantment bonus on the blade or is that just a tracker for the black blade strike?

question 2: Would applying the intelligent weapon modifiers tables to upgrade the stats of the black blade weapon be a good and fair way for player to customize the blade to meet their idea of companion. Since the progression says that the stats +1 every 2 levels.

Paying the cost to up the intelligence, wisdom, and charisma, or communication and senses.
Only after the weapon evolves up to at least a 10.

Or add more senses and communications. But limit access to other powers.

If the enchantment listed in the chart is not permanent. Then allowing a limited enchantment up to 1/3 'Blade Blade Magus' levels (not any other classes regardless of what they say), max of +5 either attack/damage mod, or special abilities, but once done can not be undone, to allow the characters to survive more then one or two fights before running out of power and needing a back up weapon to keep going.

This enchantment would be done as a Ritual (that would be like having the craft magic arms and armor, but only for the black blade) requiring the GP value in diamonds and a day per 1000 GP.

The standard of +10 to weapon limit would apply to any non-epic character.

But, I was thinking since it is a bonded companion that the standard +5 attack/damage mod, would be lifted to the Magus level

Of course the ego goes up and would add to the gaming experience.

It would be a gamble of how much do you think you can handle.

To give an example of what I'm talking about:

A 10 level Black Blade
would normally have:
INT 14
WIS/CHA 10
Ego 12

BUT
If the player decides they want a better companion and sends every GP he can to up the adding +3 INT (11 to 14) and +4 EGO.
Adding to the senses Dark vision and extending the vision to 60ft (1000 gp) +1 EGO
making the weapon at 4th level
INT 14
WIS/CHA 7
EGO 10

then after a...

Are you suggesting houserules?


Probably it should go in two forums the first question for a rules clearification and the second question as a possible house rule

But if the listed bonus in the chart for enchantment means the weapon is treated as a perminate enchantment then question 2 is a mute point.
As the weapon can only have a +5 attack/damage mod and would free up the arcana pool for other things.


GMonkey wrote:

Probably it should go in two forums the first question for a rules clearification and the second question as a possible house rule

But if the listed bonus in the chart for enchantment means the weapon is treated as a perminate enchantment then question 2 is a mute point.
As the weapon can only have a +5 attack/damage mod and would free up the arcana pool for other things.

Well, if it can be enchanted, it's not entirely moot. You can have a combination of straight enhancement bonuses and other weapon abilities up to a maximum of +10. You wouldn't be able to use your AP to add weapon abilities past combined +10, though:

FAQ:
Quote:

Weapon Bonuses: Can weapon special abilities (such as bane) or class abilities (such as a paladin's divine bond) allow you to exceed the +5 enhancement bonus limit and the +10 bonus-equivalent limitation?

[...]

The +10 bonus-equivalent limitation is a hard cap for all weapons; you can't exceed that even with class abilities or other unusual abilities.

Like I said, though - currently, unless JJ is overruled, crafting on a BB is strictly house rules territory.


RAW, I'm pretty certain that you CAN add them, there isn't a rule saying you can't, and the item otherwise qualifies as a weapon you can enchant (it isn't clear if for other people it would count as just a MW weapon for purposes of enchantment, or priced based on it's current BB enhancement bonus... if it counts as MW for them, that may be cheaper but they will need to enchant an initial +1 before any bonus-equivalent abilities). Anything you add would be 'non-stacking', so it wouldn't stack vanilla Enhancement bonus or otherwise stack with any ability of the BB (such as INT progression), they would just simultaneously be applied (anything of the same category would just use the higher one), so you would want to choose things like Flaming or flat-cost enchantments that don't overlap with the BB's abilities.

If at a later point when it's enhancement bonus goes up, the price you paid for the previous enchantment may now not be appropriate for what you're now 'getting', and that may be a balance issue, but the property was legally added, and the enhancement bonus was legally increased. To take advantage of that you need to add properties that will be useful to your later, not what is most efficient at the level you add it (which could often be vanilla enhancement bonus, which would be over-written by any enhancement bonus from the BB itself).

Liberty's Edge

There are a few very nice weapon powers with a fixed cost.

The PRD give us only 2 examples, I did remember some other example but maybe they were 3.5 powers.

Transformative is thematically interesting "a black blade that take the form best suited for his user". As a bladebound magus will generally use only his black blade, being capable to change its form and so its kind of damage can be useful, especially against enemies that are immune to critical.

Dueling too is good if your weapon is finessable.

The cost of both is high but they are a possibility.

The intelligent items powers have a fixed cost too and they can be thematically appropriate.

I will ask my GM if my black blade can have this power:
Item can use magic aura on itself at will, +2,000 gp, Ego +1
As she routinely play the "normal item" part it seem appropriate :-)

Giving your black blade a special purpose and a special purpose power seem appropriate. It require a GM agreement (if I was the GM I would be the one choosing the BB special purpose, not the player) but it would be appropriate.
The BB description say "black blade—a sentient weapon of often unknown and possibly unknowable purpose.", so a special purpose chosen by the GM seem very appropriate.


If the sword fully counts as just a MW item by people other than you (fully as in for purposes of enchanting, as opposed to simply how they USE the weapon i.e. benefit from it's powers), would that allow them to craft a SECOND, parallel/independent intelligent item consciousness into it? :-) Although for that matter, I'm not sure if there's any reason you can't craft multiple intelligent item consciousnesses into ANY weapon.


Quandary wrote:
If the sword fully counts as just a MW item by people other than you (fully as in for purposes of enchanting, as opposed to simply how they USE the weapon i.e. benefit from it's powers), would that allow them to craft a SECOND, parallel/independent intelligent item consciousness into it? :-) Although for that matter, I'm not sure if there's any reason you can't craft multiple intelligent item consciousnesses into ANY weapon.

I'd say RAW no, as it is still a 'named' magic item.

Might explain why the damn thing was passed on generation to generation until 'awakened' by the right person. Every time an attempt was made to enhance the weapon it failed... might as well pass it on to their kid or get rid of it ;)

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