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Unconscious
Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature's Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.
Helpless
A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets his sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.
Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.
That's it. All other rules apply.
OK, so it doesn't explicitly say that you cannot sing and dance and run around. I think they left it up to us to imply that "unconscious" means the same thing in Pathfinder that it does in real life.
So, since we don't really have mechanics for every possible thing a character can do (e.g., no mechanic for picking our nose), we have to use some judgment here. My judgment says that an unconscious Pathfinder character has the same limits that an unconscious real human has in the real world, except as noted in the specific texts of the two related conditions.
No purely mental actions/abilities can be used.
Saves are mostly not affected. We have mechanical rules for saves and the rules for Unconscious and Helpless do not include altering a character's saves beyond adjusting his DEX to zero, so that is the only change - adjust the character's REF save according to his new DEX score, but allow him to attempt all the same saves he could attempt if he were awake. Yep, it's silly to imagine an unconscious character diving out of the way of a fireball, but he still does get to try to make the save.
Almost all abilities stay active while unconscious. Any spells that were cast that do not require concentration to maintain will continue for their full duration, as will SP, SU, and EX abilities unless those abilities specifically require the creature to actively use them.
And in regards to your third question:
Every ability that has a duration other than "Concentration" remains active when your character falls unconscious.
Edit: Oops, I somehow overlooked that Blake already answered that question as well. Nevermind, nothing too see here...
It depends on the ability really. Some say when they turn off(like paladin auras, bardic performance) and some don't mention anything at all(uncanny dodge). I would check the ability in question to see whether it is still working or not. Saves, the only one that gets a massive kick is Reflex.
Spells cast on you don't wear off unless you have to concentrate to keep them up or unless they say so.
I think the simplest way to interpret it is this:
If it takes an action (even a free action), you can't do it.
If it doesn't, you can.
You can't cast spells, concentrate on anything, etc.
Things like saves, however, are automatic and take no actions. They should be fine. Any other ability that doesn't require activation or is "always on" (deal with it) should work fine as well.
Uncanny Dodge, yes, Reflex saves, sure, activating a spell-like ability...nope.
And before anyone says it's silly that an unconscious person can dodge things, I present two points.
Exhibit A: It's already kinda silly a man can dodge a Fireball that fills an entire room, ain't it? Get over it.
Exhibit B: This.
I think the simplest way to interpret it is this:
If it takes an action (even a free action), you can't do it.
If it doesn't, you can.
You can't cast spells, concentrate on anything, etc.
Things like saves, however, are automatic and take no actions. They should be fine. Any other ability that doesn't require activation or is "always on" (deal with it) should work fine as well.
Uncanny Dodge, yes, Reflex saves, sure, activating a spell-like ability...nope.
And before anyone says it's silly that an unconscious person can dodge things, I present two points.
Exhibit A: It's already kinda silly a man can dodge a Fireball that fills an entire room, ain't it? Get over it.
Exhibit B: This.
I don't think Uncanny Dodge would apply when you are unconscious since it states that it doesn't apply when you are immobilized and being unconscious, you are immobilized.
Ah, well. You get the idea.
If it's always on it works, if it needs to be activated you can't do it while unconscious, but if it has a persisting (non-concentration) effect you've previously activated it stays on.
I don't think Uncanny Dodge would apply when you are unconscious since it states that it doesn't apply when you are immobilized and being unconscious, you are immobilized.I think the simplest way to interpret it is this:
If it takes an action (even a free action), you can't do it.
If it doesn't, you can.
You can't cast spells, concentrate on anything, etc.
Things like saves, however, are automatic and take no actions. They should be fine. Any other ability that doesn't require activation or is "always on" (deal with it) should work fine as well.
Uncanny Dodge, yes, Reflex saves, sure, activating a spell-like ability...nope.
And before anyone says it's silly that an unconscious person can dodge things, I present two points.
Exhibit A: It's already kinda silly a man can dodge a Fireball that fills an entire room, ain't it? Get over it.
Exhibit B: This.
No, it states you still lose your Dex bonus to AC is you're immobilized, not that Uncanny Dodge stops working when unconscious, like Rage or Paladin auras says they do.
If your dex is zero, does it matter if you lose the bonus?
Uncanny Dodge is kind of a moot point, isn't it? If you're unconscious, you're helpless, which means you're immobilized, which means your DEX is 0, you don't have a DEX bonus to not lose, and you have a DEX penalty of -5.
I was going to say this (you don't need to read it because it's nearly irrelevant now):
Yes. Some abilities are triggered or conditional upon the victim losing his DEX mod. Being unconscious seriously impacts your DEX, but by the strictest reading of the rules, you still have your DEX (you haven't lost your DEX modifier) so those conditional abilities are not applicable.
For example, technically, a rogue cannot sneak attack an unconscious target (note the condition states a rogue can only add sneak attack damage to a coup de grace). I know, it sounds odd, but the rules only allow sneak attacks when the target is flanked or denied his DEX modifier, neither of which is true for an unconscious target.
So if you're a rogue and you want to sneak attack an unconscious target, bring a friend for flanking (presumably this friend distracts the unconscious target so well that he can no longer defend himself from your sneak attack - I hope he's playing a tuba or something) or you had better attempt a coup de grace.
It's an odd ruling, and I think most common sense rulings would allow a rogue to sneak attack. I sure would - I imagine that if being flanked makes a target unable to defend himself against sneak attacks, then being unconscious must make him at least equally defenseless. But unless I've missed an errata, this seems to be the explicit rule.
Note that under the Armor Class section of the Combat chapter, it says:
"If you can't react to a blow, you can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC. "
And under the definition of the Helpless condition, it says:
"completely at an opponent's mercy"
Put these two things together and it seems to suggest that an unconscious character loses his DEX bonus to AC because unconscious characters are at their opponent's mercy and therefore it seems that they cannot react to an attack.
But note that they still do get an AC. The opponent still needs to make an attack roll. Sure, the unconscious target has a really bad DEX and melee attackers get an additional +4 to the attack which means it's almost an automatic hit for most attackers against most helpless targets. But it still requires a roll and still allows the unconscious victim a chance to avoid being hit.
Which means that helpless characters still get their DEX mod, even though it's a crappy one.
But now I am going to say that all helpless creatures are also Flat-footed which means they lose their DEX mod. Nope, this is not mentioned under the "Helpless" condition, nor is it mentioned under "Flat-Footed".
"Helpless Defenders
A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.
Regular Attack
A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks. In addition, a helpless character is treated as having a Dexterity of 0, giving him a –5 penalty to AC against both melee and ranged attacks (for a total of –9 against melee and –5 against ranged). A helpless character is also flat-footed."
So there you have it, all helpless characters (including unconscious) are Flat-footed which means they technically lose their DEX mod and they also get the full penalty for having a DEX of zero.
But...
Don't forget Uncanny Dodge. Characters with Uncanny Dodge don't lose their DEX mod when Flat-footed and since nothing else in the rule about Unconscious or Helpless makes them lose their DEX mod, then technically, an unconscious character with Uncanny Dodge still gets his DEX mod, even though it's crappy, and cannot be the target of abilities that only work when he loses his DEX mod. To make someone with Uncanny Dodge lose their DEX mod you need to immobilize him, which is not an automatic effect of being Unconscious or Helpless.
Uncanny Dodge is kind of a moot point, isn't it? If you're unconscious, you're helpless, which means you're immobilized, which means your DEX is 0, you don't have a DEX bonus to not lose, and you have a DEX penalty of -5.
I disagree.
Nowhere does it state that a helpless or unconscious character is immobilized, but it does state that Uncanny Dodge is lost if the character is immobilized.
Maybe a real-world interpretation might suggest that being unconscious automatically implies being immobilized, but I don't see that stated in the rules, which makes such an interpretation a house rule rather than RAW.
On the other hand, "Immobilized" is not defined anywhere. At least, I failed to find it. Not under Paralyzed, Pinned, Petrified, Hold Person, Uncanny Dodge, anywhere I thought to look. Since this term is undefined, I guess it's up to each DM to interpret it however they want, which might include applying the term to unconscious characters.
For me, I tend to interpret the term "immobilized" as being synonymous with paralyzed and/or bound. Or another way to look at it is any condition that makes it physically impossible to move (not just mentally, but physically) - if an unconscious character could wake up and move on his own, then he's not immobilized, merely unconscious. But that's my take - unless someone can find a RAW definition of "immobilized" we're all on our own for it.
Nitpick with the bit you spoilered:
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
The rest would just be us bickering about personal interpretation of "immobilized" and wouldn't contribute anything, I don't think. Agree to disagree.
Telepathy is another means of communication and as such requires some concentration and effort. I'd say it's not possible while unconscious.
I don't see why not. It's effectively the same as talking to him out loud.
Telepathy is not that narrowly defined. My group goes with:
"Creature A with telepathy initiates the conversation by broadcasting her message to or at one or multiple other creatures with an Intelligence of 3 or higher whose presence she is aware of in her range.
She can pick and choose who 'hears' her message.
The recipients of the message then broadcast their replies back to Creature A. They do not automatically know who else has heard this message. They do not automatically know where Creature A is (in case she is invisible, hiding, etc.)"
There is more to it, but essentially, we would say that the telepathic individual could broadcast the message 'at' the unconscious person, but it is unlikely that the unconscious person could broadcast any reply.
I use the term 'unlikely' because I am well aware that Pathfinder terminology is only an approximation of real world terminology, and Pathfinder 'unconscious' might cover a whole slew of 'real world' situations. As GM I'd look at the specific situation, what made the PC unconscious, what that unconsciousness represents and whether there is a chance for the unconscious PC to process the incoming telepathic message and perhaps even broadcast back.
One other nasty bit about being unconscious is that I believe your spell resistance stays on or off, whichever state you left it in before going unconscious. If on, your allies' cure spells and restoration spells are a wee bit harder to get through to help you.
Unfortunately, the dream spell doesn't work. The text of the spell is crystal clear:
"The communication is one-way."
I'm trying to think of a way around unconsciousness for two-way communication. It seems to be worse than death at the moment. At least then you could ask a few questions and get replies.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that you are always considered "willing" for the purpose of spells when unconscious.
That is not true. That is for "harmless" spells only.
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Okay, just do get things straight.
An unconscious creature cannot trigger/activate any ability, even if it is a mental only ability.
There is currently no way for an unconscious creature to communicate with any other creature.
Although bonuses to saves are altered, an unconscious creature still gets to make them.
Ongoing spells and effects, that don't require concentration, remain in effect when a creature goes unconscious.
Have I got this all right so far?
Sounds about right.
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Pretty much what you'd expect... arguing otherwise seems absurd.Okay, just do get things straight.
An unconscious creature cannot trigger/activate any ability, even if it is a mental only ability.
There is currently no way for an unconscious creature to communicate with any other creature.
Although bonuses to saves are altered, an unconscious creature still gets to make them.
Ongoing spells and effects, that don't require concentration, remain in effect when a creature goes unconscious.
Have I got this all right so far?
It's not about arguing. It's about knowing your limitations.
Although bonuses to saves are altered, an unconscious creature still gets to make them.
I don't think so.
Long answer: Everyone is focusing on the "Dex of 0 (-5 modifier)" text, but that text is actually inconsistent with the actual rules on ability scores. A Dex of 0 doesn't give a modifier of -5; a Dex of 1 gives a modifier of -5 according to the PRD. A Dex of zero actually gives MO MODIFIER; nothing is listed because the table doesn't go that far. Instead, "A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious)."
(The part in parentheses is irrelevant for this discussion, since it is being unconscious that is causing the 0 Dex.)
Here's what Reflex saves are:
"Reflex: These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations. Apply your Dexterity modifier to your Reflex saving throws." (emphasis mine) RAW, Reflex saves require you to be able to move.
I'm sure someone will argue that the -5 modifier text wasn't an error, and was really intended to override the general rules on ability scores of zero, and that you actually should get a reflex save when you're unconscious. To those people, I say, "OK, fine - if you can make the Perception check required to detect the incoming threat to avoid."
Bottom line: reflex saves are an active defense, and require you to consciously choose to do them. Fortitude and Will saves are a passive defense. If you are asleep, you can't use attack defenses.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that you are always considered "willing" for the purpose of spells when unconscious.
No, you're not. "Helpless" is not "willing". You still get Fortitude and Will saves against spells which require those saves.
Uncanny Dodge is kind of a moot point, isn't it? If you're unconscious, you're helpless, which means you're immobilized, which means your DEX is 0, you don't have a DEX bonus to not lose, and you have a DEX penalty of -5.I disagree.
Nowhere does it state that a helpless or unconscious character is immobilized, but it does state that Uncanny Dodge is lost if the character is immobilized.
Maybe a real-world interpretation might suggest that being unconscious automatically implies being immobilized, but I don't see that stated in the rules, which makes such an interpretation a house rule rather than RAW.
On the other hand, "Immobilized" is not defined anywhere. At least, I failed to find it. Not under Paralyzed, Pinned, Petrified, Hold Person, Uncanny Dodge, anywhere I thought to look. Since this term is undefined, I guess it's up to each DM to interpret it however they want, which might include applying the term to unconscious characters.
For me, I tend to interpret the term "immobilized" as being synonymous with paralyzed and/or bound. Or another way to look at it is any condition that makes it physically impossible to move (not just mentally, but physically) - if an unconscious character could wake up and move on his own, then he's not immobilized, merely unconscious. But that's my take - unless someone can find a RAW definition of "immobilized" we're all on our own for it.
There is no RAW definition, just common sense. An unconscious person cannot move on their own volition. Hence, they are immobile since they are incapable of moving without someone puppeteering them. So for the time that they are unconscious, they are immobilized and don't have Uncanny Dodge. Once they wake up, boom, they immediately have it again. I feel it's a simple enough interpretation for unconsciousness.
Bottom line: reflex saves are an active defense, and require you to consciously choose to do them.
But they don't. No more than any other save.
You must actively choose NOT to make a save for an effect, if you'll recall. Otherwise, any effect that normally triggers a save will trigger one.
I Strongly agree with Lamplighter,and would go even farher, Unconscious is a state of effectively having a STR, DEX, INT, WIS and CHR of 0, which is not the same at having a 1. If you can't move (DEX 0) you do not GET a Reflex save. (Or a Will save).
Well, nothing within the Helpless or Unconscious condition mentions being unable to make saves.
That would have to be a houserule, to deny, as far as I can tell.
Y'know, I thought there was something in the rules about auto failing saved when unconscious, but I can't find them. So, idk.
Bottom line: reflex saves are an active defense, and require you to consciously choose to do them.But they don't. No more than any other save.
You must actively choose NOT to make a save for an effect, if you'll recall. Otherwise, any effect that normally triggers a save will trigger one.
You're honestly telling us that if someone casts create pit on the ground underneath an unconscious, dying body that it... Makes a reflex save and then rolls (?) away from the pit?
Do they leave a trail of blood as they do so? I want to make sure I describe this accurately to my players.
Bottom line: reflex saves are an active defense, and require you to consciously choose to do them.But they don't. No more than any other save.
You must actively choose NOT to make a save for an effect, if you'll recall. Otherwise, any effect that normally triggers a save will trigger one.
You're honestly telling us that if someone casts create pit on the ground underneath an unconscious, dying body that it... Makes a reflex save and then rolls (?) away from the pit?
Do they leave a trail of blood as they do so? I want to make sure I describe this accurately to my players.
You're honestly telling me a person is able to dodge an explosion in the first place?
If you want the game to be realistic you've got your work cut out for you.
Fireball'd probably be a really cool spell. 30 foot radius, 75% damage another 30 feet after that, 50% after that, maybe 25% after that, and sucks the oxygen from any vaguely sealed room?
I didn't ask about fireball. I asked about create pit being cast on the ground underneath a dying, unconscious body.
Fair enough. Unconscious. Pit. How?
You do realize it's a Reflex save for both, yes?
He gets a Reflex save RAW.
In my opinion, he gets a Reflex save RAI too. Pretty sure Paizo staff have gone on the record saying that under no circumstances are you forced to relinquish a saving throw.. Whether he's quadra-amputee chained inside an adamantine box when someone shoots a Fireball in there or not, he gets a save.
And you've never seen people roll over in their sleep? Really?
Hell, you ever seen someone fall asleep on a float in a swimming pool? And you go over and try to flip him and he immediately notices and tries to avoid it?
Same principle here, if you want a logical explanation for it. Someone casts Create Pit, he subconsciously goes "the ground moved" and rolls away from the affected area. Or not. Depending on success.
Well as logical as you can get in a game where people can get so angry they grow wings and eat fireballs.
As much as it may not make sense in a real world aspect, as a game mechanic and the rules as written, even an unconscious character gets a reflex save, a will save, and a fortitude save. To take that away the rules would need to say, “the unconscious character does not get a reflex save.”
Now, as has been mentioned, you can rule it however you want, but the rules as written do not take those saves away.