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We're talking about Ki here, which is a supernatural energy directed either through force of personality or discipline, not through study or any sort of physical means. So wisdom or charisma are the only stats that make sense.
I think charisma is fine. It doesn't just mean you're charming. Charisma encompasses a lot of things, and it annoys me, when it is reduced to one aspect by anyone and everyone who doesn't like it used wherever it is used in order to make it seem as unfitting as possible.
And ninjas do need sociability, they're infiltrators and spies, that doesn't only include sneaking around at night and stabbing people.
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I see nothing wrong with a ninja with a high charisma. Quite a few ninja skills such as bluff, intimidate disguise are based off of charisma. A ninja is an assassin and needs to be able to deceive and manipulate people.
Charisma is more than being cute and charming. It represents force of personality more than appearance and charm. Hitler was neither cute nor charming but had a very high charisma. A monk uses wisdom because his powers come from remaining calm and serene. A wizard uses intelligence to understand how the universe works. A ninja draws upon his own inner strength to dominate his surroundings.
Dexterity is a physical stat so it does not make sense to use it for mental powers. How does being fast allow you to impose your will your surroundings without moving?
I'm very charming.
Catch any adolescent ninjas lately, Hozumi Caulfield?
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Force of personality and deception are key themes for the ninja, thats charisma. The fact that charisma is a key stat for the ninja is probably my favorite aspect of it. I hate how much charisma is made the bastard child stat
Catch any adolescent ninjas lately, Hozumi Caulfield?
I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff - I mean if they're running and they don't look where they're going I have to come out from somewhere and catch them. That's all I do all day. Then I assassinate them silently and resume my cover identity as a cynical teenager rebelling against bourgeois privileged and the adult world. I know it's crazy, but that's the only thing I'd really like to be.
When I saw this thread title, I thought it said "Foxing the Ninja" and was about how to give them an animal companion.
Eldritch heritage- Sylvan bloodline most GMs will allow it.
At first I was against the change in PF from wis to cha thinking Wis made more sense, but disguise, intimidate, diplomacy, bluff are all very ninja skills and their quasi magic isn't exactly trained so cha works.
My only complaint playing a first time ninja is the weapon proficiency. they should get access to the tube arrow , the poisoned sand tube and other various eastern weapons teko kagi and such,
It depends. Charisma and wisdom for me it's the same. Both have sense if you consider ki as inner strenght. Designer's choosed CHA for balance, i think.
Int if you want to play a different campaign style, where ki is more related to "tricks and skills" than mystical inner strenght.
I don't see any means to fix the ninja, it's fine like that. Actually i don't use ninja because i'm using covent's rogue to see if it's balanced, and i'm fine for now.
Ninja can have a lot of damage output (sometimes maybe too much), has some class abilities that i find unbalanced with the rest (ninja mortal strike compared to assassin? Meh).
Since is a class that can have a insane impact on fight DM should focus on him, but is also too fragile (weak save, and worst hit chance as the rogue except full arcane casters).
Yes, i think that ninja and rogue should be fixed but not at all in the way you think.
Seeing as ninjas really only have 2 primary stats, they are not anywhere near the most MAD class out there.
My biggest complaint about the ninja is that the Elven Curved Blade is finessable but the katana is not. So if I want to use a hard-hitting two-handed weapon with a high Dex, I need to waste a feat on exotic weapon proficiency. And this is despite the katana weighs 1 lb less than the ECB.
2 stats?
They wear light armor, need dex at the very least for AC
Chi is Charisma based, they need high charisma.
They are skill based, they need a descent int
They are combatants, they need at least some strength to carry their armor and weapons as well as deal damage.
They are combatants with d8 hit die, they need con for some hp and to cover their weak fort save.
The only stat that that a ninja doesnt directly need is wisdom...
Seeing as ninjas really only have 2 primary stats, they are not anywhere near the most MAD class out there.
My biggest complaint about the ninja is that the Elven Curved Blade is finessable but the katana is not. So if I want to use a hard-hitting two-handed weapon with a high Dex, I need to waste a feat on exotic weapon proficiency. And this is despite the katana weighs 1 lb less than the ECB.
2 stats?
They wear light armor, need dex at the very least for AC
Chi is Charisma based, they need high charisma.
They are skill based, they need a descent int
They are combatants, they need at least some strength to carry their armor and weapons as well as deal damage.
They are combatants with d8 hit die, they need con for some hp and to cover their weak fort save.The only stat that that a ninja doesnt directly need is wisdom...
Str: ninjas do damage through sneak attack dice,w hich don't get Str mod added to them
Dex: one of the 2 primary stats I was talking about
Con: it really depends on how you calculate HP, but you shouldn't need more than 12 Con
Int: you get 8 skill ranks per level just for being a ninja, how many do you really need? (9 if you put favored class bonus into skills)
Wis: meh will save is weak, but that's not a good enough reason to pump Wis
Cha: the other primary stat I was referring to in my post
Str - You dont always get sneak attack, its usually a good idea to be doing at least some damage without it. Not to mention bonus dice are very rarely a solid replacement for fixed bonuses (that are multiplied on criticals for instance). So while you dont need an 18 str, you need strength at least as much as an archer does, or a monk.
Con - I guess if you houserule a more forgiving hp generation you dont need con, but at many tables a 12 is a minimum not a maximum for a d8 combatant that doesnt have alot of good defensive options.
Int - Alot- you need alot of skills as a ninja. 8 seems like alot, but it runs out quick when you are an actual skill monkey and most of your skill points go to critical responsibilities, leaving you with very few actual choices for skills.
Wis - As is stated above, weak will save so you certainly cant dump it AND perception is a key skill.
Str: 13
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 14Now just add your bonuses based on race (I REALLY like musetouched aasimars for ninjas, +2 Dex and +2 Cha) and there you go. Throw your level 4 ability bump into Str and you're fine.
In fact, I'm playing a ninja in an AP with that stat spread except the Con and Wis scores are swapped because I wanted a boost to perception to be the party scout. At level 1 I've only got 9 HP, but I've got the same AC as the party paladin because of the Dodge feat.
And what you have there is a character who's stats are as divided as a monk or paladin. That is a VERY mad class. 2 primary ability scores, 3 that are seconday but important, and 1 he cant really dump even if he wants to. Obviously any character can manage with those stats, but you would benefit significantly from having a higher strength, con, and int, that is the definition of a mad class (see monk, paladin, magus, inquisitor, and bard).
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But I don't want to be...fixed!
I just read about ninjas having Charisma as a primary stat.
...
WTF?
What were the writers thinking when they came up with that stupidity? Any other stat would be more fitting. Is this something that needs to get hit really hard with a Rule 0 Hammer?
It almost looks like they only did they in order to make the ninja less powerful, since it's a souped up rogue.
In which case, ignoring that, for flavor and style, what would be the suggestions? Should Charisma be replaced by Intelligence, Wisdom, or Dexterity? I could see arguments for each of the three. Charisma just doesn't make sense. I never heard of charming ninjas.
You do know that historically, these people dressed as ordinary servants etc to get close to their target, and then murdered them, right? One would think acting ability, and so Charisma, would be the most important attribute one could have. They didn't use fancy armaments, just simple tricks to distract pursuers (assuming they fouled up and got seen poisoning some poor fool), no black bathrobes, none of that crap.
I actually kind of like the charisma basis, if only because the ninja I would want to make would be flashy and "anime style" and thus it fits.
But I loathe how it turns Ninja into the most MAD class in the game. I think both Ninja and Rogue need fixing, though, and one of my changes would be a good Will save to make Wis less important and reduce MAD for both.
Catch any adolescent ninjas lately, Hozumi Caulfield?I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff - I mean if they're running and they don't look where they're going I have to come out from somewhere and catch them. That's all I do all day. Then I assassinate them silently and resume my cover identity as a cynical teenager rebelling against bourgeois privileged and the adult world. I know it's crazy, but that's the only thing I'd really like to be.
That killed me, for crissake. Those goddamn bastard little kids.
I dunno, I always thought of ninja as being the sorts to have lots of little useful gadgets like eggshells filled with blinding powder, or disguises so they could get close to a target, but not to have a magical Ki pool. Really, when you think about it, they should all be Evil aligned, being as they are professional assassins. As such, why not just have them be of the Assassin prestige class and have done with it?
Naw, I disagree about assassins being evil as stupid. Makes sense to me. In the real world, there are nasty psych consequences for murder. Ever hear of shellshock or PTSD? Same thing. Gotta be pretty warped not to have a problem with that.
and if a game doesn't hit the required level, too bad so sad. If you don't like that, work to make the game more fun for everyone, and don't let the DM burn out with dealing with problematic players.
the fictional Ninja concept overall is more than a little silly. I have no trouble banning it simply for thematic reasons. Black Pajamas do not make an assassin, they make you dead before you can draw your poisoned blade.
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Piccolo, you're really missing a lot of different points here.
What a real ninja did is just as relevant as what a pop-culture ninja does. Fantasy inherently has its roots in reality. History is important the same way physics are: Yes, fantasy and games deliberately deviate for thematic and mechanical effect, but without it some nod to reality, names lose their meaning.
Black pyjamas aren't really more a ninja thing than a rogue thing or a shadow dancer thing. Besides, how many other tactics get you killed in real life? Ever tried going up against a guy with a heavy sword and a shield while wielding a rapier? Using a bow and arrow five feet away from an armed man? Using kung fu against guns? Fighting when outnumbered four to one? How about all those in the same battle?
Anyway, who cares what you're wearing when you magically look like one of the bad guys and you can turn invisible as a swift action? Putting the two points above together, it becomes very clear to me that this ninja is a fantastic version of the historical kind. His role has become more adventurous but is basically the same, his abilities are exaggerated and supernatural powers are used to explain that.
The ninja in my campaign is a pirate using the ninja class. It works wonderfully. He has magic, but hell, so does a bard, so why not? If singing can be magical, so can hiding.
Now and then he vanishes or something and nobody can explain how, but they know better than to ask. He wouldn't be seen dead in pyjamas of any kind and he fits right in, even though there's no Asian influence in the campaign.
As for all assassins being evil, I guess this means anybody who administers the death penalty and any soldiers who don't go nuts are evil too? You don't have to be evil to avoid those consequences. Hell, it wouldn't even help. You have to be hard as nails, deeply believe in what you're doing, or be detached from suffering. None of those things are immoral.
As for replacing the ninja with the assassin, assassin requires you to build your character a certain way on top of the limits of your base class, kicks in late, has an obsessive focus on the act of killing, lacks the powers and proficiencies of the pop-culture ninja, fills a slightly different role to the ninja alternate class and isn't very powerful.
@ DreamGoddessLindsey, I don't think that constitutes a fix. You have a different interpretation of what a ninja should be, but the rules work perfectly well with the designer's intent and won't spoil anybody's game any time soon. You might not like it, but it aint broke.
i´ve never heard about a ninja bluffing!!
the ninja (as i know from history and books and so) have no chat with no one, just lurk arround, stab or face the enemy.
If you see a ninja in front of you, that mean you are so dead!!
so, wisdom is better, and maybe we can change her aligment to Lawful too, remove bluff from her skill list (she dont need it), (also, Red Mantis acts more a ninja than the ninja class)
in the other hand: paizians says when they were making the class something like "this classes will be our version of the ninja, not the ninja from cultures or so"
The same for the samurai (maybe thats the reason that the samurai sucks a lot)
wish you luck!
Every class gets at least a small benefit from having a high value for any score. Sure. they are useful to varying degrees for each class, but that's how it works for all of them. A ninja always wants to have high Dex and Cha, but everything else is secondary and dependent on playstyle.
i´ve never heard about a ninja bluffing!!
the ninja (as i know from history and books and so) have no chat with no one, just lurk arround, stab or face the enemy.If you see a ninja in front of you, that mean you are so dead!!
so, wisdom is better, and maybe we can change her aligment to Lawful too, remove bluff from her skill list (she dont need it), (also, Red Mantis acts more a ninja than the ninja class)
in the other hand: paizians says when they were making the class something like "this classes will be our version of the ninja, not the ninja from cultures or so"
The same for the samurai (maybe thats the reason that the samurai sucks a lot)wish you luck!
Well, intelligence gathering was their main thing. They were spies. Assassination and sabotage were secondary, if more infamous, activities. Plenty of people saw Ninja face to face. They just didn't know it.
i´ve never heard about a ninja bluffing!!
Sure you have. Everybody knows they disguise themselves, right? If they do that, anything they say in disguise is going to be a lie.
Plus bluffing is used in deceptive combat, which seems like a pretty ninja thing to do if your foe doesn't drop dead from the first attack.
Sure you have. Everybody knows they disguise themselves, right? If they do that, anything they say in disguise is going to be a lie.
Uhh...no. That would be a massive massive nerf to the Disguise skill if true. Only lies you say while disguised are lies. If you look like a doctor and someone asks you if you think another person is sick, it's not a lie to answer that, even, despite the implicit assumption the NPC had in asking you in the first place that you are a medical professional. If you say, "in my professional opinion..." or "as a doctor, I think..." then sure, you need bluff. But not just any statement you make!
Ninja definitely used disguise and bluff historically, though. The above is just... so horribly wrong about how disguise works...
The real problem with the ninja is that he's too close to the rogue. Having a ninja alternate class is as silly as having an ashigaru alternate class of fighter. A minor archetype with a proficiency swap should be adequate because a rogue should be able to potentially do everything a ninja can do and visa versa.To properly fix the rogue/ninja they need to be re-merged and the assassin and master spy and maybe shadowdancer need to be broken up for rogue talents.
I don't particularly disagree with the Ninja-Rogue part of your comment but imo Ashigaru = Warrior not Fighter :) A Samurai, or more properly a Bushi could be done with an archtype to Fighter or Cavalier (as was pretty much done).
*edit* Thinking about it, Ronin = Fighter and Samurai = Cavalier.
Didn't 2nd edition "Oriental Adventurers" have a Yakuza class? If Ninja is to Rogue, then I don't know what Yakuza would more or less equate to.
Didn't 2nd edition "Oriental Adventurers" have a Yakuza class? If Ninja is to Rogue, then I don't know what Yakuza would more or less equate to.
1E Oriental Adventures did. Rogue again I'd say. Different archtype or skill selection though.
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The problem is mostly, OP, that you are coming in here, complaining that PF's ninja is not the kind of ninja you want, and then acting as if that should change anything.
There's nothing stopping you from playing a Ranger or Inquisitor of some sort that wears the black pajamas and does sneaky things. A class' name is generally irrelevant to getting the feel you want for your character.
Your argument was based on what historical ninja were, not on the image they have in fiction, which is entirely different and is what the class in the game is meant to represent.
The falsity of your premise (that the ninja class in any way represents real ninja) is entirely on topic.
You're creating a false dichotomy here.
It's nt like ninjas can only either be 100% historyically accurate or 100% sneaking, black clad night assassins.The pathfinder ninja is a bit of both + a little bit of naruto ninjas even, with the Ki ability.