Am I reading handle animal correctly?

[Jordan Barlam]

I know that animals (even dire ones) aren't too big of a deal in most campaigns and are quickly outclassed by all other manner of foe. Even so, what I think I'm seeing here is so mind-boggling that I had to make sure that I'm not making a mistake.

Namely, I see absolutely no restrictions on using the handle animal skill to push animals. While the skill makes a couple of references to domestication here and there, absolutely nothing in the skill actually seems to state that it can only be used on domesticated animals or outside of combat or that an actively hostile animal has ANY degree of resistance against the attempt.

No, as far as I can tell, as soon as you can manage a DC 25 check reliably, you effectively have permanent mind-control over an entire type of creature (and all creatures with 1-2 Int as soon as you can manage DC 30) as you can simply order the dire animal/dinosaur to run away or something as a full-round action.

This is stupid. I know this. I doubt that I know any DMs who would actually run things like that. Even so, this is so head-scratchingly bizarre that I'm really hoping I'm wrong here and that one of you guys can tell me what on earth I'm missing. So many skills have been fixed that this seems like an odd thing to have missed.

[Manimal]

While I can't fine where it explicitly says so, it seems to me intended that in order to "push" an animal into doing something, the animal has to be at least nominally willing to take commands, i.e. domesticated.

[N N 959]

I think the missing piece is that the rule should require that the animal has an attitude of at least Indifferent.

[JohnF]

I'd want to take the DC modifiers on Diplomacy as a guideline here.

If the baseline DC for push is 25, assuming an indifferent animal, then the DC for pushing an unfriendly animal should be 30, and the DC for a hostile one 35.

[Nefreet]

There is at least one scenario where it gives Handle Animal as an alternative to fighting, although I forget the DC.

[Hawkwen Agricola]

I've always assumed Handle Animal was for trained or domesticated animals, at the least animals with an attitude of friendly. Why else would there be Wild Empathy, if it was treated as the OP suggests?

[Jordan Barlam]

To be clear, I am not suggesting that anybody EVER use the skill as the OP dictates. That interpretation obviously leads to a slew of problems and I've always played with the skill using a stance very near what Hawkwen Agricola suggests (I actually agree with him completely).

This was merely posted as a question of RAW (slippery, squishy mess though it is). Pathfinder has done quite a good deal to help solve this type of issue from much of what I've seen and I was just hoping to see if this potentially dangerous ambiguity had actually escaped notice or if I was simply missing something.

[Nefreet]

The problem with using Wild Empathy on hostile animals (the ones which are usually encountered) is that it takes 1 minute to perform. Most combats with animals will be over by then.

[BigNorseWolf]

This sort of thing is why there are DMs.

And rolled up newspapers.

[BigNorseWolf]

Nefreet wrote:

The problem with using Wild Empathy on hostile animals (the ones which are usually encountered) is that it takes 1 minute to perform. Most combats with animals will be over by then.

There's a few solutions for this.

1) Dump cha since the ability is hard to use anyway, and use charm animal instead.

2) There's the fast empathy feat (which is hard to use because you can't take it till 5th level)

3) My druid carries an entire pig in a bag of holding. Critter shows up looking for a meal, the druid offers him one and THEN tries to make a friend.

[Nefreet]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

My druid carries an entire pig in a bag of holding. Critter shows up looking for a meal, the druid offers him one and THEN tries to make a friend.

That is almost as awesome as the Conjurer in my home group summoning a Celestial Dolphin inside a swarm of spiders and telling the rest of the party to run.

[BigNorseWolf]

Nefreet wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

My druid carries an entire pig in a bag of holding. Critter shows up looking for a meal, the druid offers him one and THEN tries to make a friend.

That is almost as awesome as the Conjurer in my home group summoning a Celestial Dolphin inside a swarm of spiders and telling the rest of the party to run.

Aqueous orb + summon sharks. In the desert.

All i need now are lasers...

[Nebten]

Nefreet wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

My druid carries an entire pig in a bag of holding. Critter shows up looking for a meal, the druid offers him one and THEN tries to make a friend.

That is almost as awesome as the Conjurer in my home group summoning a Celestial Dolphin inside a swarm of spiders and telling the rest of the party to run.

Too bad the pig would be dead after 10 minutes and you can't summon a creature into an environment that can't support them.

If the druid tells the party not to attack said animal right away, you might be able to get Wild Empathy off. I was so happy when I was actually able to use the ability to calm down a dire badger.

[BigNorseWolf]

Nebten wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

My druid carries an entire pig in a bag of holding. Critter shows up looking for a meal, the druid offers him one and THEN tries to make a friend.

That is almost as awesome as the Conjurer in my home group summoning a Celestial Dolphin inside a swarm of spiders and telling the rest of the party to run.

Too bad the pig would be dead after 10 minutes

That's kinda the plan. Its lunch. I just keep purify food and drink running in lieu of refrigeration.

Quote:

and you can't summon a creature into an environment that can't support them.

They're sharks. Its a ball of water. They'll be fine. Its a portable fishbowl...

[N N 959]

Nefreet wrote:

The problem with using Wild Empathy on hostile animals (the ones which are usually encountered) is that it takes 1 minute to perform. Most combats with animals will be over by then.

If the party is fighting the animal, Wild Empathy won't work for the same reason Diplomacy doesn't work against creature's your attacking

Wild animals "are usually unfriendly," not hostile. Once you start using Wild Empathy on the animal, you're essentially starting a dialogue with them and I don't see any reason why a DM would prevent someone from getting the full minute.

[Nefreet]

Nebten wrote:

Nefreet wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

My druid carries an entire pig in a bag of holding. Critter shows up looking for a meal, the druid offers him one and THEN tries to make a friend.

That is almost as awesome as the Conjurer in my home group summoning a Celestial Dolphin inside a swarm of spiders and telling the rest of the party to run.

you can't summon a creature into an environment that can't support them.

This was in a home game. I'm a nature geek IRL, so when she asked if she could do that I pointed out that dolphins, including orcas, have been known to beach themselves temporarily to trap fish and other aquatic prey on land. The duration of a Summon Monster spell is 12 seconds/level for a Conjurer. Certainly long enough for a Dolphin to survive, especially since it breathes air, unlike a Shark. It was a "thinking outside of the box" moment to deal with a threat they couldn't handle, so I gave it to her.