Antipaladin feature confusion

[Jeon]

As I compared paladin class features to those of the antipaladin I noticed some wording that has confused me regarding fiendish boon.

The wording of divine Bond and feindish boon are nearly identical. However, there seems to be a vast difference in the mechanics of the two features in the sections dealing with the mount/servant.

The paladin refers to a druid animal companion while the antipaladin refers to the summon monster spell (the level of which changes as your character levels).

Here is the confusion I am having: both the antipaladin and paladin have a mount/servant that is said to be an individual creature that is permanently with you (unless banished or killed). The antipaladin section states: that the servant is "permanent and the antipaladin can only gain the service of a single creature". Additionally, both paladin and antipaladin use the term "call" in the sections dealing with bringing the mount/servant to them.

How can this be consistent with a summon monster spell in the case of the antipaladin? summon spells are supposed to be different from calling spells in that you create a manifestation of a creature that goes away when the spell ends or when the creature is killed (not really, as the creature is reformed in 24 hours on it's home plane.

From core:

Quote:

Conjuration

Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.

Points to consider:

-Why would paizo switch the class feature to a real animal companion to a summoned manifestation?

-Why would they use the term "call" when referencing bring both mount/servant to you when call and summon have such different meanings? To see my point just compare the spells summon monster and planar ally.

-why the 30 day restriction on calling the servant again if it is killed or banished? This makes sense with a mount because it is real and died. There is no problem if my character summons a meat shield and have it die for me daily using the summon monster spell.

From APG:Antipaladin

Quote:

Should the antipaladin's fiendish servant die or be banished, the antipaladin may not summon another servant for 30 days or until he gains an antipaladin level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, the antipaladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.

The only way this makes sense to me is if you actually gain a servant chosen from the summon monster list. It can die and is not just a summoned creature.

[Ximen Bao]

I don't see your rules issue.

What's the rules confusion regarding that the monster is summoned rather than called? The paladin's mount isn't specified as either, it's closest to a druid's animal companion.

Instead of leveling up as an animal companion like the Paladin's mount, you get a progression of better monsters. It specifically calls out exceptions to general summoning so that it's permanent and works more or less like Divine bond apart from that.

You're also reading "call" into different contexts. Neither class uses a Conjuration(calling) spell to make their beastie appear, they both have a unique untyped SLA that isn't the equivalent of any specific spell.

As far as I can tell the only difference of substance you've pointed out is the fluff about what happens when the critter croaks.

[Jeon]

There are a couple major implications if the servant is summoned:
-can the servant be dispelled?
-would their be spell limitations for the servant such as teleport and spell component cost that go along with a summoned creature?

I am about to play an antipaladin in a campaign and I am trying to avoid future debates at the table.

[Ximen Bao]

Jeon wrote:

There are a couple major implications if the servant is summoned:

-can the servant be dispelled?
-would their be spell limitations for the servant such as teleport and spell component cost that go along with a summoned creature?

I am about to play an antipaladin in a campaign and I am trying to avoid future debates at the table.

If it functions as a summon monster spell, it could be dispelled, or dismissed, or banished.

I'm not sure the impact of a dispel. A banish locks it away for a month or a level, whichever comes first. I'd guess a dispel does too, given the result is the same.

Not entirely sure what you're referring to regarding teleport and spell component cost.

[Jeon]

It seems strange that the antipaladin's servant is subject to dispel and the paladin's mount is not. Additionally, you would think the publisher would stipulate that dispel also triggers the 30 day wait time as it does do very much the same thing as banish (as you pointed out). I can foresee this being very common occurrence in the campaign I will be playing.

And to answer your last question about why i worry about teleport and component cost-
The summon monster spell has a section that states that a summoned creature can't summon other creatures, teleport, or use spells with an expensive component cost.

Thanks for helping me btw :)

edit: and referencing an earlier post about "call" and "summon"
I mentioned that to show the peculiarity of the section. The spell I use to bring my servant to me has the exact same wording as the paladin's. Yet, the spell effect seems to be much different. One just transports a mount to your location while the other is a summoning spell apparently.

Quote:

Once per day, as a full-round action, an antipaladin may magically call his servant to his side. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the antipaladin's level. The servant immediately appears adjacent to the antipaladin. An antipaladin can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every four levels thereafter, for a total of four times per day at 17th level.

[Ximen Bao]

Jeon wrote:

It seems strange that the antipaladin's servant is subject to dispel and the paladin's mount is not. Additionally, you would think the publisher would stipulate that dispel also triggers the 30 day wait time as it does do very much the same thing as banish (as you pointed out). I can foresee this being very common occurrence in the campaign I will be playing.

And to answer your last question about why i worry about teleport and component cost-
The summon monster spell has a section that states that a summoned creature can't summon other creatures, teleport, or use spells with an expensive component cost.

Thanks for helping me btw :)

edit: and referencing an earlier post about "call" and "summon"
I mentioned that to show the peculiarity of the section. The spell I use to bring my servant to me has the exact same wording as the paladin's. Yet, the spell effect seems to be much different. One just transports a mount to your location while the other is a summoning spell apparently.

Quote:

Once per day, as a full-round action, an antipaladin may magically call his servant to his side. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the antipaladin's level. The servant immediately appears adjacent to the antipaladin. An antipaladin can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every four levels thereafter, for a total of four times per day at 17th level.

I don't believe the 'calling to the side' is the summoning spell. The class feature itself is equivalent to the summoning spell. The magical 'here boy' trick is just gravy.

I think you're right about summons and teleports too, although that's not something the paladin's mount can do either.

What you end up with (I think) is a bonded creature that's more powerful (I'd take a fiendish grizzly bear over a lv 7 AC horse any day) but with more vulnerabilities.

[Jeon]

For reverence, here is the full applicable text:

Quote:

The second type of bond allows an antipaladin to gain the service of a fiendish servant. This functions as summon monster III, except the duration is permanent and the antipaladin can only gain the service of a single creature and that creature must either have the chaotic and evil subtypes or it must be a fiendish animal. Once selected, the choice is set, but it may be changed whenever the antipaladin gains a level. Upon reaching 7th level, and every two levels thereafter, the level of the summon monster spell increases by one, to a maximum of summon monster IX at 17th level.

Once per day, as a full-round action, an antipaladin may magically call his servant to his side. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the antipaladin's level. The servant immediately appears adjacent to the antipaladin. An antipaladin can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every four levels thereafter, for a total of four times per day at 17th level.

I read the second paragraph as the actual spell that my character would use to gain/call the servant, say after i dismissed it or after the 30 day wait period if it did die. So i don't know if i agree it is just gravy. It might be just an extra spell if you have a real horse such as a paladin would.

[Ximen Bao]

I think the relevant portion is:

"The second type of bond allows an antipaladin to gain the service of a fiendish servant. This functions as summon monster III"

The Fiendish Boon bond functions as summon monster III. The whole schlemiel, except where otherwise noted. The call to your side bit is just an extra function.

[Jeon]

How many times can I use the first spell per day? Actually, the question should be why even have that second paragraph if the first one allows an unspecified amount of servant summons?

I took the second paragraph as a limitation of the class feature- a limitation on the number of times per day you can bring back the servant.

I'm utterly confused as to whey they would implement two spells that do the same thing if your interpretation is the correct one.

My initial feeling is that paizo copy pasted from the paladin and changed flavor/fluff. Heal to hurt, celestial mount to evil servant. There should have been a unified paragraph with how many times per day the spell can be cast, casting time, and the spell's interactions with dispel, dismiss, and banish.

The summoner is a great example of this implimentation. One spell to ritually summon and another to move the eidolon around (maker's call).

[Ximen Bao]

The servant is always in existence once you get the class feature unless it's been destroyed/banished. That's the 'permanent' bit.

You can just make it jump from wherever it's lazing about torturing squirrels to your side X times per day.

It's functionally a teleport.