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Trained Legerdemain (Ex): At 6th level, a carnivalist can command a familiar or pet within 30 feet to make a Disable Device or Sleight of Hand check as if trained in the skill, using its own skill ranks (if any), Dexterity modifier, and equipment, with a competence bonus equal to 1/2 her rogue level. The check requires the normal amount of time to complete and the DC increases by 5. The carnivalist must maintain this pet performance each round her familiar or pet attempts a Disable Device or Sleight of Hand check.
looking through the familiars, the only one that has either of these two skills is the raccoon, who has a base +1 to sleight of hand. the dc to steal an item from someone is a 20, raised to 25 by this ability. since both skills are trained only, am i wrong in reading this that there is only one familiar capable of using it, and even then only capable of using one of the two skills? the familiar rules say they use your skill ranks for skills, but this specifically states the familiar uses its own ranks. is this a mistake of some sort?
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also, for those people who are interested in using this class to have a built in flanking buddy, remember that familiars do not gain base attack progression, and therefore will always be unlikely to actually hit anything with their terrible attack bonuses.
basically i do not understand why this archetype gets a familiar instead of an animal companion. just restrict the companion to creatures smaller than the player. as written you are swapping out half your SA dice and three talents so you can have handle animal as a class skill and a tiny pet.
Trained Legerdemain (Ex): At 6th level, a carnivalist can command a familiar or pet within 30 feet to make a Disable Device or Sleight of Hand check as if trained in the skill, using its own skill ranks (if any), Dexterity modifier, and equipment, with a competence bonus equal to 1/2 her rogue level. The check requires the normal amount of time to complete and the DC increases by 5. The carnivalist must maintain this pet performance each round her familiar or pet attempts a Disable Device or Sleight of Hand check.looking through the familiars, the only one that has either of these two skills is the raccoon, who has a base +1 to sleight of hand. the dc to steal an item from someone is a 20, raised to 25 by this ability. since both skills are trained only, am i wrong in reading this that there is only one familiar capable of using it, and even then only capable of using one of the two skills? the familiar rules say they use your skill ranks for skills, but this specifically states the familiar uses its own ranks. is this a mistake of some sort?
The familiar or pet can be commanded to made a check as if trained in the skill so any familiar or pet can do it. It adds it's dex bonus, any ranks it has (which in the case of familiar raises some questionable interactions with the rule that a familiar can always use the master's skill ranks), and half your rogue level on the roll.
Also in the same book, the Animal Archive, is the pilferer that gives these skills as class skills to your familiar. The familiar uses the wizards (or in this case, rogues) BAB IAW with this line:
Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons.
also, for those people who are interested in using this class to have a built in flanking buddy, remember that familiars do not gain base attack progression, and therefore will always be unlikely to actually hit anything with their terrible attack bonuses.
basically i do not understand why this archetype gets a familiar instead of an animal companion. just restrict the companion to creatures smaller than the player. as written you are swapping out half your SA dice and three talents so you can have handle animal as a class skill and a tiny pet.
If I was playing it, I'd be teeing it up for one of the wackier improved familiars.
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the pilferer archetype does indeed seem "intended" for this archetype. if you read them closely however you will see they still don't work. both archetypes give the familiar 1/2 your level as a competence bonus, which doesn't stack with other competence bonuses, such as either archetype or any magical item that boosts these skills.
here's how it would work in game:
the dc to steal an item is 20, increased to 25 by the performance. lets say you have a raccoon with a wopping 19 dexterity through a buff boosting dex. the raccoon has a rank in sleight of hand, and pilferer makes it a class skill so he has an innate +8 to the check. at 6th level, you give it a +3 competence bonus from either carnivalist or pilferer, doesnt matter since it doesnt stack. so your raccoon can make sleight of hand checks at +11. dc 25 means it needs to make a 14 or higher to work. so a 35% success rate, if you are using the optimized route. keep in mind that every failure will alert the person, so you only really get one go if you mess up.
the dc for an average lock is 25, boosted to 30 by the performance. none of the familiars have ranks in the skill, so the best you can get is a +4 from dex and +3 from the competence bonus at level 6. so +7, which means the pet cannot actually use the ability. at level 12, when you give it a +6 to the check, and it has dex 19, it can pick a lock 5% of the time.
as for disabling traps, lets just assume your familiar with its terrible bonus is not going to disable any trap which has its dc boosted by 5, and in fact is just there to trigger traps.
again, this is solved if the familiar is a companion, or if the performance uses your ranks instead of the familiars. RAW however, this archetype currently does not seem to do what it is intended to do
again, this is solved if the familiar is a companion, or if the performance uses your ranks instead of the familiars. RAW however, this archetype currently does not seem to do what it is intended to do
Thinking about I believe that the performance does use your ranks when using a familiar. You can use the performance with a familiar or a pet. Familiars can use your skill ranks instead of theirs on any check, so when the performance wants the creature to use its ranks, the pet may be stuck, but the familiar can use yours.
I think a lot of people are ignoring that your familiar can use your ranks. So this ability is at +5 DC, but it's the familiar's Dex plus your ranks plus half your level. It's pretty likely to work if you use your familiar, rather than just a pet.
I wonder, though, if "as if trained" strictly allows the skill to be used at all, or if it gives a +3 to the check.
I'm a little late to this thread, but...
+3 (trained), +4 (dex, assuming a buff (collar of dexterity)), +6 (ranks), +3 (competence), +2 (MW tool) = 18
18 v. 25 = 72%
18 v. 30 = 60%
Remember, pickpocket (sleight of hand) is different than steal (combat maneuver).
At 6th level your "familiar" is smarter than most fighters and a lot of paladins, so I don't know how much "commanding" you need to do, but probably a little extra instruction on how to pick the mechanical lock would be helpful. Perhaps a tiny manual to put in the same belt pouch the racoon puts his tools & loot.
There might even be a tiny "Vest of Escape" as well.
Yes, your pet horse Mr. Beaky might be able to work the latch of his stall door, but isn't picking the barn door lock with a carrot anytime soon. Your weasel familiar Sneakers will be in and out of the royal treasury faster than you can say "Faster than Chitikka Fastpaws".
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I'm a little late to this thread, but...
+3 (trained), +4 (dex, assuming a buff (collar of dexterity)), +6 (ranks), +3 (competence), +2 (MW tool) = 18
18 v. 25 = 72%
18 v. 30 = 60%Remember, pickpocket (sleight of hand) is different than steal (combat maneuver).
At 6th level your "familiar" is smarter than most fighters and a lot of paladins, so I don't know how much "commanding" you need to do, but probably a little extra instruction on how to pick the mechanical lock would be helpful. Perhaps a tiny manual to put in the same belt pouch the racoon puts his tools & loot.
There might even be a tiny "Vest of Escape" as well.
Yes, your pet horse Mr. Beaky might be able to work the latch of his stall door, but isn't picking the barn door lock with a carrot anytime soon. Your weasel familiar Sneakers will be in and out of the royal treasury faster than you can say "Faster than Chitikka Fastpaws".
The problem is that, by RAW, you cannot give the familiar 6 ranks in either skill, because the ability description explicitly states that the ability uses the animal's skill ranks, not the PC's. I've been considering making a carnivalist because it's so cool as a concept, but it doesn't look like a playable build to me.