Ok, so I'm pretty familiar with the Magic Item crafting rules as they pertain to making items, and then how you go about upgrading them (+1 weapon to a +2 weapon, etc). What I am not sure about is if you can upgrade an item you have crafted yourself to have a higher caster level (like when you level) when the Caster Level on the item doesn't play a part in its cost.
Example: A Belt of Giant Strength is usually Caster Level 8 for purposes of dispelling it, or how strong the aura is for Detect Magic. But the cost to create has nothing to do with Caster Level. It is just Bonus X Bonus X 1000g (so a +2 Belt is 4000g). Thusly, a 5th level caster could make one that is easier to dispel, and a 12th level caster could make one that is harder to dispel for the same gold and time investment (2000g and 4 days).
So, if a player makes one at 5th level and decides at level 12 (after having his Belt dispelled a lot) to upgrade the caster level on it, how much (time and/or money) should it cost him to do so? (I know the "correct" answer is to upgrade the Belt to +4 or +6 and then just upgrade the caster level at that time since it doesn't cost anything, but this is a hypothetical scenario for all items, some of which might not have "upgrade" options available).
Are you sure it is 'allowed'? I'm fairly sure when it comes to magic items the general rule is the CL is the minimum level required to to cast the spell (in situations like wands, potions, scrolls and the like). And when it comes to named items the costs and CL are set by the values in the book. Doing anything beyond that requires 'custom magic items' which are not allowed in organized play and require what ever 'extra' costs the GM decides in home games if they are even allowed.
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I think there's a comment on it in the "does anyone still have questions about magic item creation" thread, but that thing is hundreds of posts long and I don't have time to dig it up right now. I think it was James Jacobs who commented that "yes, it's allowed to upgrade your items when you get a new rank in spellcraft; and while it doesn't take any money, and therefore no day per 1000gp, RP-wise it should take at least several hours."
In organized games it's a different thing: PFS just has no item crafting by players at all, so the issue doesn't come up.
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The dispel issue is what makes it more 'powerful' in comparisson to what is printed in the book. An item that normally has CL 5 typically costs a great deal less than an item with CL 16. It isn't 'just' about the effect of the item, it also comes down to the reliability of it. If it was 'just' about the check to make the item why wouldn't the game automatically assume it was CL 20 across the board?? It would make the stat blocks easier/shorter and save word count.
The answer is items are priced according to where in the power/wealth curve they become available. They have CLs according to when you would get them so the DCs of dispels are competitive at that point as well as not essentially being immune to dispelling by CR appropriate opponents. There are grades of magical items for a reason. Lesser items are more likely to stop working than greater items when 'dispelled' which makes them more reliable as well as more expensive. That is intended. A ring of prot +1 with a CL of 20 is vastly more useful and reliable than the 'normal' ring of prot +1, which means the price should be changed to make up for it.
The dispel issue is what makes it more 'powerful' in comparisson to what is printed in the book. An item that normally has CL 5 typically costs a great deal less than an item with CL 16. It isn't 'just' about the effect of the item, it also comes down to the reliability of it. If it was 'just' about the check to make the item why wouldn't the game automatically assume it was CL 20 across the board?? It would make the stat blocks easier/shorter and save word count.
The answer is items are priced according to where in the power/wealth curve they become available. They have CLs according to when you would get them so the DCs of dispels are competitive at that point as well as not essentially being immune to dispelling by CR appropriate opponents. There are grades of magical items for a reason. Lesser items are more likely to stop working than greater items when 'dispelled' which makes them more reliable as well as more expensive. That is intended. A ring of prot +1 with a CL of 20 is vastly more useful and reliable than the 'normal' ring of prot +1, which means the price should be changed to make up for it.
Except... that when you craft the item yourself, you can set the caster level = to anything you want (up to your caster level) and MANY, MANY items don't have a cost associated with the Caster Level, just the power of the item. The Belt example shows that the average Belt is CL 8. You can create the item as soon as CL 3. The only cost associated in CRAFTING the item is the bonus it gives. So creating one that is CL 3 and one that is CL 20 costs the same amount in money and time (assuming you were CL 20).
While I agree with you that a higher CL = more useful/powerful, the rules do not. That is why I asked the question in the first place. RAW, there is no cost involved.
The only time caster level comes into play in regards to cost is with scrolls, wands, potions, rods and staves. As the formula for the cost includes the CL of the crafter creating it.
You can only set the CL of potions, scrolls and wands.
The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item's saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation.For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself.
If you want to make a custom magic item that is harder to dispel you'll have to talk with your GM. It's difficult to suggest what such an item should cost since there are no hard rules for custom magic items.
So if PCs can do this I would expect NPC crafters to be doing this. Any suggestions on how much to add to the costs for off the market weapons, etc with higher caster levels? Or for having an NPC increase the CL of a weapon or item?
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So if PCs can do this I would expect NPC crafters to be doing this. Any suggestions on how much to add to the costs for off the market weapons, etc with higher caster levels? Or for having an NPC increase the CL of a weapon or item?
I would go by the Spellcasting services entry as a minimum. 10gp x (sp level) x (caster level) to start, and of course I assume they need the item creation feats and the spell prepared (all spell component cost already payed, but you're modifying the spell so it's almost a recasting).
You could also use the entries in the wondrous item creation table if the CL has a larger effect on the spell than just higher dispel difficulty. I would go for (cost modifier) x (spell level) x (new CL - old CL) for this second way.
Sean, will this be one of the things clarified in Ultimate Campaign? What is involved in upgrading the CL of magic items?
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No, because (in this discussion) we're talking about items for which the caster level has almost no effect on its usability (it's a very small corner case), and I'd rather use the limited print space to discuss things like "can I make a constant true strike weapon?," "how much does it cost to add item X's properties to my item Y?," and "can I add abilities to a holy avenger and how do I price them?"