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After reading through the "Main Problem with Fighters" thread, I decided to post the homebrew tweaks I've been using for the fighters in my home games.
Class Skills
This tweak is pretty common; change the fighter skill points per level to 4. However, I also decide to give the fighter a tad bit more versatility by removing a few of the classic fighter skills, keeping the basics, and then allowing fighters to choose 4 additional skills of their choice as class skills.
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Bonus Feats
So kind of a different change here, made in the name of martial versatility which I felt the fighter desperately deserved. I reduced the number of fighter bonus feats gained by level 20 to just six, but also gave the fighter more versatility with his fighter bonus feats, allowing him to retrain them at the start of each day. Fear not, a fighter still gets some kind of bonus feat every other level (and thus retains his feat every level progression).
A fighter does not need to meet the prerequisites of an Improved combat maneuver feat (such as Improved Trip) when selecting the feat as his fighter bonus feat.
Starting at 4th level, once per day, after getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour practicing his martial training, a fighter can choose to learn new fighter bonus feats in place of any fighter bonus feats he has already learned (this does not include combat style bonus feats). In effect, the fighter loses his fighter bonus feats in exchange for new ones. The old feats cannot be ones that are used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability.
Combat Style Feats
Yep, combat style feats. I know this change isn't quite innovative as some would prefer, but my reasoning behind it kind of is. The largest boon of the combat style feature is it's ability to grant feats while ignoring prerequisites, and that really screamed "fighter" to me. Yes, you have to shoehorn your fighter's concept into a combat style, but aren't most fighters already doing that to some degree with the weapon training class feature?
With this addition, the fighter keeps his feat-a-level progression, but also gains the ability to grab the feats he needs without some of the heavy feat tax. Now, the fighter still needs to pay that feat tax if he wants to continue down a feat chain outside of his combat style feats and fighter bonus feats, so I thought that was justification enough to make the changes I did.
I have also created a couple of new combat styles for players that couldn't use the current combat styles to create their concept. Creating new combat styles isn't too difficult.
1st..........Bonus Feat
2nd..........Bravery +1, combat style feat
3rd..........Armor training 1
4th..........Bonus feat
5th..........Weapon training 1
6th..........Bravery +2, combat style feat
7th..........Armor training 2
8th..........Bonus feat
9th..........Weapon training 2
10th.........Bravery +3, combat style feat
11th.........Armor training 3
12th.........Bonus feat
13th.........Weapon training 3
14th.........Bravery +4, combat style feat
15th.........Armor training 4
16th.........Bonus feat
17th.........Weapon training 4
18th.........Bravery +5, combat style feat
19th.........Armor mastery
20th.........Bonus feat, weapon mastery
I have been testing these homebrew tweaks for nearly half a year now, and I have yet to run into any gameplay issues. They have been compatible with nearly every fighter archetype without causing any disruption, so far. I've seen an increase in PC fighters, as well as fighter spot-lighting both in and out of combat. And my players typically feel much better about playing a fighter than they did in the past thanks to the added versatility.
As a disclaimer, most of my players are roleplayers first, and munchkins last, so that may skew things a little, but I can't imagine by much.
So what do you guys think?
I really like these changes, especially the advent of "Combat Style" feats. That really helps in fulfilling criteria, the same way it helps rangers (two-weapon fighting for characters with less than 15 Dex, for example).
The re-training bit is pretty nifty. I like the versatility; the idea of a fighter being able to pick up an exotic weapon and use it without having to invest heavily into the use of that weapon, and even switching fighting styles is really appealing to me. Chances are his primary style will go unchanged (due to combat style feats), but his secondary style might change all the time. So, a two-handed fighter type might pick up archery for a while, and then switch to unarmed/grappling sometime thereafter. I think it's brilliant.
The only thing I'm iffy on is the change to skills.
Good job, I'll be stealing this (at least in part) for sure.
I really like these changes, especially the advent of "Combat Style" feats. That really helps in fulfilling criteria, the same way it helps rangers (two-weapon fighting for characters with less than 15 Dex, for example).The re-training bit is pretty nifty. I like the versatility; the idea of a fighter being able to pick up an exotic weapon and use it without having to invest heavily into the use of that weapon, and even switching fighting styles is really appealing to me. Chances are his primary style will go unchanged (due to combat style feats), but his secondary style might change all the time. So, a two-handed fighter type might pick up archery for a while, and then switch to unarmed/grappling sometime thereafter.
I think it's brilliant. Good job, I'll be stealing this for sure.
Thank you! And yes, that was the primary reasoning behind the addition of the combat style feats. The fighter still decides on a main concept, but isn't locked into that concept by all of his other decisions, and has the flexibility to be a viable fighter outside of that concept.
You're welcome. I edited my comment to reflect my doubts (in regards to skills). Still, I like the rest (a lot).
You're welcome. I edited my comment to reflect my doubts (in regards to skills). Still, I like the rest (a lot).
The hesitation to the skill change is understandable. The way I saw it, if you were a fighter trained in mobility, then you would naturally have some experience with tumbling or maneuvering obstacles. Likewise, if were trained as a noble's private militia or bodyguard, you would have some experience in Knowledge (nobility) or Diplomacy. If you were just trained as a plain old militia soldier, when would you have had experience in dungeon delving [Knowledge(dungeoneering)]?
Makes sense (Acrobatics most of all), but I think that's where traits come in handy. What's more, not putting Perception on the class list, but allowing it as an option seems... odd. What fighter isn't going to take Perception? It's an option, but it's not. Not really, anyway.
I'd be more open to the idea if it wasn't the exception. If all class skill lists were like this (with the "choice" option), I think I would like it much more. I'm actually a fan of the way Star Wars / D&D 4th-edition did skills.
Makes sense (Acrobatics most of all), but I think that's where traits come in handy. What's more, not putting Perception on the class list, but allowing it as an option seems... odd. What fighter isn't going to take Perception? It's an option, but it's not. Not really, anyway.
I'd be more open to the idea if it wasn't the exception. If all class skill lists were like this (with the "choice" option), I think I would like it much more. I'm actually a fan of the way Star Wars / D&D 4th-edition did skills.
Yes, I see where you are coming from. And I didn't put Perception on the list because many other classes still don't have it, and the fighter never did to begin with. Many players did pick Perception, yes, but that is one of their choices out of the four. Adding it as a baseline now just felt like I was twinking the class, because everyone wants it.
Actually, Survival should be on that list too. I must have missed it when I was copying it over.
I too enjoyed how those systems did skills, which lead me to changing the skill list in that way.
I'm not a huge fan of the choose your own skills or the combat style paths, to be honest. I think the traits solve that problem fairly well. I think a system where you choose a "background" that gives one extra class skill would be a nice compromise. As is, it may as well be Perception + 3 other skills.
The combat style bit takes too much from the ranger, I feel, especially the ignoring prerequisites (which is the whole point). There's also the oddity in that the stated goal is increased versatility, but they're very so much locked into the combat style (although using the swappable bonus feats to get a different combat style for a day is an interesting twist).
I'm ambivalent about the increased skills, and quite like the ability to modify feats every day. Evil Lincoln's brother had something like that on the pathfinderdb, and Ultimate Equipment had a book that allowed the same thing. It's a good idea.
Ultimate Equipment Cheapy is actually still in the works, and it promises to offer tons of low-priced goodies.
Ultimate Equipment Cheapy actually isn't happening :( But this product line is pretty close to it. Everything is <2.5k
And yea...I never thought about using that in dips. And to think, people dipping into fighters for versatility due to this one item? What has the world come to!
I will concede that the skill change isn't for everyone. My players enjoy it though, which is my primary target audience anyhow.
And I get that combat styles seem counter-intuitive when it comes to versatility, but as you stated its more about ignoring the prerequisites, but on a tier level so that fighters aren't taking end-chain feats for free without taking at least some of the prerequisites. If you think about it, a combat style is really just a collection of feats. Taking a combat style doesn't restrict you to using specific weapons, for example. This is true even for rangers. Taking the archery combat style can still be used for throwing weapons. The feats from two-handed combat style still works for a sword and board or even one-handed style. Nowhere does it say you have to use a two-handed weapon in order to gain the feats of a style.
And again, as you said, being able to switch your bonus feats into a potentially different style offers huge versatility.
The main reason I didn't just stay with just fighter bonus feats and make fighter bonus feats swappable, was because I didn't want my players to be retraining their entire character (all 10 of their bonus feats) each day at higher levels.
If you want to axe the combat style feature, and go back to just bonus feats, but keep the ability to swap feats each day, then I would suggest capping it at a lower value, say maybe 4 or 5 feats. If you want more, then use the Manual of War.
The changes shouldn't affect anything in terms of balance, but more me... I just don't see a need. I do give 4 + Int skill points to fighters, which my players enjoy, but I don't really see a need gameplay-wise or a reason thematically for a fighter to change his training at the start of each day. Granted, people playing with the same character for an entire year from 1st-10th level might want a change, but on shorter-lived campaigns it wouldn't be.
Being able to change your feats often allows for fighters to be what they are advertised to be: masters of many different kinds of weapons and styles. I think that's a good thing.
Oh yea, if it works for you, that's awesome and no changes are needed. It's just that since you posted it in the homebrew forum, I'm going to take the chance to comment on it :)
You're absolutely right that being able to change all your feats is ridiculous, and I like how you have it limited to just a few.
My main concern with the combat styles really is just how it poaches from the ranger, specifically being able to ignore prereqs. Rangers are special because they can get those feats early. I don't have a recommendation in place of this at this time, but if something comes to me, I'll post it.
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So after one of my players brought up an interesting idea, I did a little thinking and decided to rework my homebrew fighter.
Here's what I did:
The fighter's class skills are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str). {Players were choosing most of these skills anyhow, so I just reinstated the classic skill list, adding Perception.}
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”
Starting at 2nd level, when qualifying for a fighter bonus feat, a fighter may ignore one of the feat's ability score or feat prerequisites. At 6th level, a fighter may ignore up to two of a feat's prerequisites, including base attack bonus prerequisites of +11 or less, when qualifying for a fighter bonus feat. At 10th level, a fighter may ignore up to three of a feat's prerequisites, including base attack bonus prerequisites of +16 or less, when qualifying for a fighter bonus feat. For example, when qualifying for the Improved Disarm feat, a fighter may ignore either the 13 Intelligence or the Combat Expertise feat prerequisite when selecting the feat as a fighter bonus feat. At 6th level, he may ignore both.
Starting at 4th level, once per day, after getting 8 hours of sleep and then spending 1 hour of martial training, a fighter can choose to learn one new fighter bonus feat in place of one fighter bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses his fighter bonus feat in exchange for a new one. The old feat cannot be one that is used as a prerequisite for another feat (unless you are able to ignore the feat prerequisite of the new feat), prestige class, or other ability.
This should keep the fighter competitive with the ranger's combat style ability, and its ability to ignore feat prerequisites, while still allowing the ranger's combat style ability to still be unique and advantageous if a few cases (at 2nd level, a ranger can ignore up to two prerequisites for a select few combat feats, a fighter can ignore one prerequisite for all combat feats; at 6th level, a ranger can ignore up to four prerequisites with a select few combat feats, a fighter can ignore up to two prerequisites for all combat feats; at 10th level, a ranger can ignore up to five prerequisites for a select few combat feats, a fighter can ignore up to three prerequisites for all combat feats).
Combat Style has been removed.
In essence, this change could allow you to switch out obsolete feats for their upgrade (i.e. no more Combat Expertise collecting dust in one of your feat slots). For example, at 4th level, as long as you had the Power Attack feat and 13 Strength prerequisites, you could switch out Cleave for Great Cleave. Likewise, at 6th level, as long as you had either the Combat Expertise feat or the 13 Intelligence prerequisite, you could switch out Improved Feint for Greater Feint.
This change also allows greater flexibility in builds, as you aren't as hampered by ability score requirements as before. This means that a Str-based fighter can obtain the two-weapon fighting chain, or that a low Int fighter can more easily obtain combat maneuver feats.
Level......Special
1st..........Bonus Feat
2nd..........Bravery +1, bonus feat
3rd..........Armor training 1
4th..........Bonus feat
5th..........Weapon training 1
6th..........Bravery +2, bonus feat
7th..........Armor training 2
8th..........Bonus feat
9th..........Weapon training 2
10th.........Bravery +3, bonus feat
11th.........Armor training 3
12th.........Bonus feat
13th.........Weapon training 3
14th.........Bravery +4, bonus feat
15th.........Armor training 4
16th.........Bonus feat
17th.........Weapon training 4
18th.........Bravery +5, bonus feat
19th.........Armor mastery
20th.........Bonus feat, weapon mastery
This new change to fighter bonus feats has yet to be tested, so the only balancing I have done has been theorycrafting and rules comparison. Thoughts?
After doing a little more research and contemplation, I decided to make the following changes to the Bonus Feat class feature.
Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”
Starting at 2nd level, when qualifying for a fighter bonus feat, a fighter may ignore a feat's ability score prerequisite, skill rank prerequisite, and base attack bonus prerequisite of +6 or less. At 6th level, when qualifying for a fighter bonus feat, a fighter may ignore a feat's base attack bonus prerequisite of +11 or less. At 10th level, when qualifying for a fighter bonus feat, a fighter may ignore a feat's base attack bonus prerequisite of +16 or less, and one feat prerequisite.
When selecting Critical Focus, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike as a fighter bonus feat, he must meet the feat's prerequisites as normal.
Starting at 4th level, once per day, after getting 8 hours of sleep and then spending 1 hour of martial training, a fighter can choose to learn one new fighter bonus feat in place of one fighter bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses his fighter bonus feat in exchange for a new one. The old feat cannot be one that is used as a prerequisite for a prestige class, class ability, or another feat (unless the fighter is able to ignore a feat prerequisite of the new feat).
I'm really just thinking out loud here. It might just be simpler to say "a fighter bonus feat ignores all prerequisites," thus allowing them to ignore feat prerequisites like Combat Style, but keeping the base attack bonus restriction. The most glaring issue with this decision is that a ranger only gets 5 bonus feats in which he can completely ignore prerequisites, while a fighter would get 10 (assuming you start ignoring prereqs at lvl 2). Although, a fighter's "thing" is his feats...
It always kind of bugged me that part of a ranger's kit was a combat style. Not just a combat style, but a way to get feats much sooner and simpler than a fighter, whose kit focuses primarily on feats. How is it that a ranger, a man of the wild, is more naturally adept at archery or two-weapon fighting than a fighter that has had martial training and who's aptitude revolves around combat?
Maybe the fighter should keep Combat Style. It's worked in my games so far.
I kinda liked the post earlier, where it's as simple as, "The fighter ignores # of prerequisites." Seemed a lot simpler.
And yeah, Rangers are ridiculously overpowered. Full BAB, spells, Gravity Bow, Animal Companion, boosts to attack and damage and initiative that are supposed to be limited, but look! There's a spell for that too! Hunter's Howl and Instant Enemy.
Alright, so after a little thinking, I decided to give back Combat Style to Fighters, as well as give them the modified Bonus Feat ability to ignore prerequisites. The combat style feats for the fighter have worked really well in my games, so I think they should keep it. The change to Fighter Bonus Feats has yet to be tested, but I think should also be a huge boon to how fighters operate. Feat chains and feat taxes are the real killers of fighters, but with these changes that should no longer be the case.
Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”
When qualifying for a fighter bonus feat, a fighter may ignore one of the feat's prerequisites (not including base attack bonus prerequisites). At 12th level, a fighter may ignore up to two of a feat's prerequisites when qualifying for a fighter bonus feat.
Starting at 4th level, once per day, after getting 8 hours of sleep and then spending 1 hour performing martial training, a fighter can choose to learn one new fighter bonus feat in place of one fighter bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses his fighter bonus feat in exchange for a new one. The old feat cannot be one that is used as a prerequisite for a prestige class, another feat (unless the fighter is able to ignore the old feat prerequisite of the new feat), or a class ability.
Combat Style Feat (Ex): At 2nd level, a fighter must select one of many combat styles to pursue. The fighter's expertise manifests in the form of bonus feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.
Archery: If the fighter selects archery, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Shot. At 6th level, he adds Improved Precise Shot and Manyshot to the list. At 10th level, he adds Pinpoint Targeting and Shot on the Run to the list.
Two-Weapon Combat: If the fighter selects two-weapon combat, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Double Slice, Improved Shield Bash, Quick Draw, and Two-Weapon Fighting. At 6th level, he adds Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Defense to the list. At 10th level, he adds Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Rend to the list.
Crossbow: If the fighter selects crossbow style, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Deadly Aim, Focused Shot, Precise Shot, and Rapid Reload. At 6th level, he adds Crossbow Mastery and Improved Precise Shot to the list. At 10th level, he adds Pinpoint Targeting and Shot on the Run to the list.
Mounted Combat: If the fighter selects mounted combat, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Ride-By Attack, and Trick Riding. At 6th level, he adds Mounted Shield and Spirited Charge to the list. At 10th level, he adds Mounted Skirmisher and Unseat to the list.
Two-Handed Weapon: If the fighter selects two-handed weapon style, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Cleave, Power Attack, Pushing Assault, and Shield of Swings. At 6th level, he adds Furious Focus and Great Cleave to the list. At 10th level, he adds Dreadful Carnage and Improved Sunder to the list.
Weapon and Shield: If the fighter selects weapon and shield style, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Focus, Shield Slam, and Two-Weapon Fighting. At 6th level, he adds Saving Shield and Shield Master to the list. At 10th level, he adds Bashing Finish and Greater Shield Focus to the list.
Of course, with this change, rangers in my games no longer possess the Combat Style Feat feature, and instead just gain Bonus Feats at those levels.
Level......Special
1st..........Bonus Feat
2nd..........Bravery +1, combat style feat
3rd..........Armor training 1
4th..........Bonus feat
5th..........Weapon training 1
6th..........Bravery +2, combat style feat
7th..........Armor training 2
8th..........Bonus feat
9th..........Weapon training 2
10th.........Bravery +3, combat style feat
11th.........Armor training 3
12th.........Bonus feat
13th.........Weapon training 3
14th.........Bravery +4, combat style feat
15th.........Armor training 4
16th.........Bonus feat
17th.........Weapon training 4
18th.........Bravery +5, combat style feat
19th.........Armor mastery
20th.........Bonus feat, weapon mastery