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Is there any method of creating magical items with Su and Ex abilities which are not spells? As usual, the item creation section is a little hazy on this topic. Thoughts? Insights?
Example: Ring of Evasion grants an ability which is an Ex. So do I just base any other Ex cost off that? What about Su's?
(The main reason I asked was for Blindsight (Ex) which solves that issue, since other (Ex)'s can be duplicated... kind of makes sense that you can make a "bat mask" or whatever to reproduce the (Ex))
Su's are quite a different story, though, and I am still trying to see if there are any Su's in the list of CORE RULEBOOK magic item effects/abilities.
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OK. I found a precident for Su's being able to be enchanted into crafted items: Damage Reduction. Incidentally, while this is listed as a Su ability, it is also granted from the non-SU source Adamantine (or perhaps starstone is in fact Su?).
So I have precidents for both Ex and Su abilities being able to be crafted into items and am a little happier, despite no "defined" crafting rules for these specific abilities being listed (no good examples of EX or SU in the creation listing).
Damage reduction is both Su and Ex. It depends on what kind of damage reduction it is. (Unless that was something Pathfinder changed, and made all damage reduction Su.)
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Damage reduction is both Su and Ex. It depends on what kind of damage reduction it is. (Unless that was something Pathfinder changed, and made all damage reduction Su.)
Yeh, the Mantle of Faith item is linked to Damage Reduction (p 561) in my core rulebook. This page explains it as a Su. Additionally the Invulnerable attribute of armor enchantments does the same. I was simply looking for "any" example of a Su in the core rulebook being imparted to a magical item. 5/magic and 5/evil as well as 3/- are great examples of both the Su and Ex DRs.
The goal being that it logically follows that if ONE Su/Ex can be imparted another unlisted one can be as well. Favoring the ones like Blindsight, Fast Healing, and such...
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Look the whole description
Mantle of Faith
Aura strong abjuration [good]; CL 20th
Slot chest; Price 76,000 gp; Weight —
Description
This holy garment, worn over normal clothing, grants damage reduction 5/evil to the character wearing it.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, stoneskin; Cost 38,000 gp
Ring of EvasionAura moderate transmutation; CL 7th
Slot ring; Price 25,000 gp; Weight —
Description
This ring continually grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had evasion. Whenever she makes a Reflex saving throw to determine whether she takes half damage, a successful save results in no damage.
Construction
Requirements Forge Ring, jump; Cost 12,500 gp
Ex and Su abilities can be simulated, but they have a magical origin and require a spell with a similar effect.
BTW, about blindsight, in ultimate equipment I find this item:
SWORDMASTER’S BLINDFOLD PRICE
80,000 GP
AURA moderate transmutation CL 9th WEIGHT —
This black band of silk grants its wearer spectacular senses within a limited range. Some believe these items were made to grant lesser swordmasters the illusion of skill. When the wearer places the blindfold over her eyes, she becomes blinded, but gains blindsight (Bestiary 298) within the reach of her melee weapon, or 5 feet if the wearer is not wielding a melee weapon. Furthermore, the wearer is under the effect of a constant locate weakness (Ultimate Combat 236) spell, but only when making melee attacks.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS COST 40,000
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Diego, I hate to contradict you, but NONE of the spell requirements are needed for item crafting. Master Craftsman Feat combined with the Craft Wonderous Item feat, adding +5 per spell skipped = no spells needed.
So how do all these artisens make "magic" items?
It is OBVIOUS that SU abilities have a magical origin, in that they are SU abilities. But NO, they do NOT require any sort of magic to craft into an item (just a +5 modifier).
Thank you for the Blindfold item, as it points out that yes, later on, people see it is reasonable to craft these abilities into items.
My premise for NON-MAGICAL (hard to craft, yes) items with a sense such as Blindsense would be an area such as the Mana Waste where a device is discovered which grants Blindsight. This would be, essentially, a 360 degree IR/sonar/radar helmet (or similar hand-held detector). Range dependant upon whatever... and running on a nuclear charge power station or something (see also Gamma World). Not having something that logically could be made simply because it is "powerful" in the PFS world? The premise is there for a whole lot of abuse, granted. But then that is what item crafting is all about...
I would also like to point out that "JUMP" has NOTHING to do with EVASION (as far as game mechanics go). It is just a spell they added in that kinda made sense with what they were trying to do. It would make more sense that the crafter would NEED to have EVASION in order to craft something with EVASION in it (see also, substituting spells in the crafting section).
They still have a magical origin. Those feats make you "just that awesome" to be able to do it even though you have no spells. The spell requirements don't go away. You just supplant them with a high craft skill.
That said, if it's not on the grid in the magic item creation chapter then there aren't rules for it. Wait for Ultimate Campaign to come out as a part of it is entirely devoted to crafting nuances.
Keep in mind some times Paizo will associate spells that have a similar-but-not-same effect on an item. For example, Sword of the Planes has planeshift as a requirement but the item doesn't let you use planeshift. However, the sword's enhancement bonuses changes depending on either what plane you're on or if your target is from another plane.
What you want though is basically unobtainable. Golarion simply doesn't have that kind of technology. That's why magic exists.
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They still have a magical origin. Those feats make you "just that awesome" to be able to do it even though you have no spells. The spell requirements don't go away. You just supplant them with a high craft skill.
That said, if it's not on the grid in the magic item creation chapter then there aren't rules for it. Wait for Ultimate Campaign to come out as a part of it is entirely devoted to crafting nuances.
Keep in mind some times Paizo will associate spells that have a similar-but-not-same effect on an item. For example, Sword of the Planes has planeshift as a requirement but the item doesn't let you use planeshift. However, the sword's enhancement bonuses changes depending on either what plane you're on or if your target is from another plane.
What you want though is basically unobtainable. Golarion simply doesn't have that kind of technology. That's why magic exists.
Buri... hate to contradict you too... but, pursuant to the Inner Sea World Guide any tech that mimics similar magic items is available in the Mana Waste. Additionaly information regarding tech that simulates magic is found in various modules (Kear Maga comes to mind, where the "nano bugs" can get you). Essentially all the tech would opperate as a magic item, despite being tech. And that is fine.
You are correct, in that the spell requirements don't "go away". However, supplanting them with NON-MAGIC skills does sort of mean no magic is needed. Also, the rules in the Core Rulebook state that if it is not on the list, you can find a similar item and use that as a template to find the cost to make something similar. Now, what I was stating is that "similar" is not limited to "exacty identicle" but rather "similar" in ability type it copies (SU or EX).
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You're asking this in a rules question forum. If you have a campaign setting question that's best taken to general discussion or the James Jacobs thread. The only advice you'll get here is rules related. Rules wise, what you want doesn't exist. Magic items are derived from magic even if they give abilities that are traditionally non-magical. This is evidenced by the shifting DC if you have scrolls or an appropriate spellcaster to supply magical components. If there is allotment for it in the Golarion setting then so be it. But, then it no longer becomes a rules question.
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You're asking this in a rules question forum. If you have a campaign setting question that's best taken to general discussion or the James Jacobs thread. The only advice you'll get here is rules related. Rules wise, what you want doesn't exist. Magic items are derived from magic even if they give abilities that are traditionally non-magical. This is evidenced by the shifting DC if you have scrolls or an appropriate spellcaster to supply magical components. If there is allotment for it in the Golarion setting then so be it. But, then it no longer becomes a rules question.
The only reason I brought campaign information into it is because you mentioned these items not existing in the world. I was simply pointing out that yes, according to published material, they can. And then attempted to get back to the core rulebook where they allow such items to be created per the RAW.
And as I stated: the CORE RULEBOOK states that if you want to make an item which is similar to one that exists, it is OK.
"The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide."
"The formulas only provide a starting point."
"Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)."
and lastly... "Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost"
ABILITIES... is listed in there with a few suggestions. So given that SU and EX abilities are IN ITEMS on the list, and ABILITIES are included in the item creation section, I think it is fair to conclude that abilities NOT LISTED would be available. The pre-requisites don't necessarily need to be magic spells, and overall, the item can be cosntructed without casting a single spell.
And as I said, if it's not in the magic item creation pricing grid there are no rules for it. That grid assumes some bonuses to attack, abilities, AC and saves but otherwise is geared for working with spells. Anything more than that is entirely up to the creativity of the GM.
It sounds like you already have in mind what you want and your justification for doing it. I fail to see why you're here other than to gain some sort of consensus behind your idea.
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And as I said, if it's not in the magic item creation pricing grid there are no rules for it. That grid assumes some bonuses to attack, abilities, AC and saves but otherwise is geared for working with spells. Anything more than that is entirely up to the creativity of the GM.
It sounds like you already have in mind what you want and your justification for doing it. I fail to see why you're here other than to gain some sort of consensus behind your idea.
If it is not in the magic item creation pricing grid then the rule is : find something like it that is already priced and start there. RAW anyway.
The prerequisite section makes pretty plain that spells are not needed for every magic item (as do the item descriptions themselves). again RAW.So there are rules, however vague, to making items with SU and EX abilities. How do I figure this? Because there are items on the list in the original Core Rulebook which grant EX and SU abilities. Granted, there is no comma (,) after the word Abilities in the section I quoted. But that doesn't make it any less applicable to all abilities and not just those listed as suggestions (if it did not say "such as" I might agree that it only included the abilities listed).
As for my motivation for asking - who really cares? Its just a game. No reason to get personal. I was just asking if it was included in the RAW. As far as I can tell by spending a little while looking at it, yes, it is. It is highly up to the GM what prerequisites are needed. But SU and EX abilities are embedded into magic items. Who really cares why I asked other than - I wanted to know.
If you've got all this RAW then, again, why are you asking questions?
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If you've got all this RAW then, again, why are you asking questions?
To get snippy little responses from people? Or maybe I was just "typing out loud" on the forum discussing the rules... One might have been happy that in the hours since I first posted I found my own answers since no others were forthcoming.
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Diego, I hate to contradict you, but NONE of the spell requirements are needed for item crafting. Master Craftsman Feat combined with the Craft Wonderous Item feat, adding +5 per spell skipped = no spells needed.
Wrong, you can bypass the need to know the spell, but the spell requirement still exist.
The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.
"+5 for each prerequisite the caster don't meet", not "+5 to remove a prerequisite".
It is OBVIOUS that SU abilities have a magical origin, in that they are SU abilities. But NO, they do NOT require any sort of magic to craft into an item (just a +5 modifier).Thank you for the Blindfold item, as it points out that yes, later on, people see it is reasonable to craft these abilities into items.
My premise for NON-MAGICAL (hard to craft, yes) items with a sense such as Blindsense would be an area such as the Mana Waste where a device is discovered which grants Blindsight. This would be, essentially, a 360 degree IR/sonar/radar helmet (or similar hand-held detector). Range dependant upon whatever... and running on a nuclear charge power station or something (see also Gamma World). Not having something that logically could be made simply because it is "powerful" in the PFS world? The premise is there for a whole lot of abuse, granted. But then that is what item crafting is all about...
I would also like to point out that "JUMP" has NOTHING to do with EVASION (as far as game mechanics go). It is just a spell they added in that kinda made sense with what they were trying to do. It would make more sense that the crafter would NEED to have EVASION in order to craft something with EVASION in it (see also, substituting spells in the crafting section).
so you want a technological artifact? Wrong location and wrong question in the OP.
Go to Numeria, where there is a fallen starship and use technology. But then it has nothing to do with crafting magic items.The Mana Wastes have early firearm technology, not "any technology you want".
And the crafting feat are about crafting magic items.
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Numeria is definately a place with high tech that mimics magic as well, but firearms and "steam punk" tech can also... As a place to "create magic items" it would be essential to have non-magicly created items (because magic in the mana waste is so unpredictable). Again, though, the world is not what I am attempting to discuss. The mana wastes is a place where "worlds collide" ergo my first impression is a place where any "magic" item might exist.
I guess we can go "round and round" on whether the "spell requirement" is necessary, but as I pointed out: you can bypass it and it does mention in RAW that spell requirements are not always needed. (dwarven thrower, simple +'s, oathbow, ring of climbing, etc....). So to me "bypassing" is the same thing as creating it without magic spells (per the description of Master Craftsman). I do recognize they are still considered magic items.