Are witches completely broken?

[Verzen]

So lets assume that the witch is lvl 9. (lvl 8 witch, lvl 1 alchemist)

I have the evil eye hex, 22 int [18 + 2(race) + 2(levels)], spell focus and greater spell focus as feats. (Both for illusions) The cognatagen would also grant + 4 int. (And the accursed hex feat)

I also have, as a hex, Misfortune.

At level 8, the dc for phantasmal killer is 10+4+6+2+2 = 24. A dc of 24 is pretty good and pretty lethal. But then you calculate in the evil eye hex which then reduces the saves, both will and fort, by -4. This is a hefty loss of saves. Not only that, you also have misfortune. So lets assume that the character is a monk for the best possible saves. At level 9, they get +6 to each save, not calculating in stats. Lets assume +4 to each stat, so they have an unreal amount of stats. (Assuming 18 con and 18 will). So the -4 on both ends cancel out the stats, leaving just 6 will save and 6 fort save.

Not I still have to make a 24 dc. This means that I MUST make either an 18, 19, or 20. Not only that, but I need to make an 18, 19, or 20 TWICE! per roll!

So that's 3 chances out of 20 so the chance of this occurring is [3/20]* [3/20] = 2.25% chance of passing the will save. A 2.25% chance of passing the fort save. So not only do you have to pass the will, you also then have to pass the fort save or you die. Granted, it takes 3 turns to do this, but if you're facing a really really strong monster, the chance of them being able to stop you is significantly in your favor as long as the party survives for three turns. In fact, in order to get the first hex off (evil eye), you're still looking at 10+4+8 = 22 dc. Without the -4 from evil eye, they still have to get a 12 or greater to stop it and even IF they save against it, just go ahead and cackle to increase it to two rounds.. So in reality, it's IMPOSSIBLE to fail applying this on the target and next turn you can just apply the misfortune hex where they have only a 20% chance or so to pass it.

Or are there more broken options to consider for a lvl 9? (Note. Everything is PFS legal)

[Verzen]

I made the example totally in favor for the one doing the saves, because it's a "best possible scenario" situation to show the extremities of how strong witches can be.

[Mark Moreland]

This question is not specific to the rules of Pathfinder Society Organized Play, so I'm moving this thread to the general rules forum.

[Yiroep]

Take a level dip in dual-cursed oracle and get the misfortune revelation so that your hexes/SoS spells hit more often?

If you want to max out phantasmal killer, might as well get wayang spellhunter and magical lineage and make them persistent.

The problem is that a lot of witch spells don't affect certain creatures (mind-affecting stuff). Also, using evil eye and misfortune takes 2 rounds to do. Of course, this is what a familiar is for.

If you want to do it in one round, have improved familiar, give him a wand of ill omen, and then familiar ill omens, you cast persistent phantasmal killer, that's already roll 3 times for the will save, and then roll 2 times for the fort save, and you can throw in your misfortune revelation from the dual-cursed oracle to make them roll one of them again. All. In. One. Turn.

[ZomB]

Killer combos are killer if you have the setup time and luck.

Phantasmal killer requires 2 saves, which lowers the odds a little.

You should work out the odds of all those working out. You may have been better hitting them for three separate rounds of other hexes or other serious effects.

Not sure how this is that much worse than the sleep hex for practical purposes.

[Avatar-1]

You're talking about wiping out one character (per day) though.

How many times can you cast phantasmal killer per day, what are you sacrificing in that level of spells by taking that many phantasmal killers, what other bad guys are in the room while you're performing this enormous action economy (misfortune + evil eye + phantasmal killer = 3 rounds).

I'm not sure what cognatagen is.

Don't try it on something with telepathy, because, whoops.

I'm not sure what else I haven't considered.

[lostpike]

Whats worse is casting skinsend on yourself while wearing a necklace of adaptation. Throw your body in a portable hole then cast magic jar on top of the ill omens, evil eyes, and misfortunes...

[Quandary]

Quote:

Not sure how this is that much worse than the sleep hex for practical purposes.

and i think that answers the thread title...

[Mergy]

If you're multiclassing so you can have 10 minutes of higher intellect, and you're spending two rounds softening up a single target, I think you've broken things the wrong way.

[News Guy]

9th level Witch capable of easily destroying CR 8 NPC in three rounds, film at eleven.

[MikeMyler]

A half-elven synthesist summoner at level 9 could have 15 evolution points, not counting feats and what have you, and access to spells that grant extra evolutions.

So yeah. Throw in a level of Monk and the potential there is just staggering.

[Matrix Dragon]

The funny thing is... all the monk needs to do is run away and let the hexes wear off as soon as he realizes that imminent doom is coming. Then he is immune for 24 hours.

[Raith Shadar]

The problem with the witch is they don't have to do it themselves. They do this combo and set things up for the other players. They're very powerful and can turn many encounters into a trivial fight. What they need is a means to remove hexes. Is there a spell for removing hexes that can be cast as a standard action? I don't mind powerful effects as long as they have some means to counter.

[oynaz]

Intelligent cooperation by the players can vastly lower combat difficulty. I routinely give the monsters max jp and increase their number by 50 % in order to challenge my players.

Consider letting dispel magic remove hexes. I do.