Hit points at very low Constitution...

[Midnight_Angel]

Well, let's have a look at our villige Elder, Old Irina, a 7th level Commoner.

As her title implies, Old Irina is very old. Venerable, to be precise, reducing her constitution score from the 11 she had when she was spry to a measly 5. The fact she did not use her favored class bonus to improve her toughness does not make things better.

Prize question: How many hp does Old Irina have when uninjured?

a) 7d6-21 means an average of 3.5 per d6, for a 0.5 per d6-3, thus she has 0.5 x 7 = 3.5 hp, rounding down to 3.
b) 7, as you cannot have less max hp than hd.
c) Every single hd yields at least 1 hp. Thus, 1d6-3 will result in 1,1,1,1,2 or 3 hp, for an average of 1.5 (9 divided by 6). Irina has 10 hp.

Now, to complicate things, Irina has fallen ill, and is suffering a -2 constitution penalty. How to adjust her maximum hp?

a) Just deduct 7 from her max hp?
b) as per a), but she cannot drop lower than 7, as this is the number of ger hd?
c) re-calculate the average hp per hd (for a new average of 1 1/6), granting her a whopping 8 hp?

Bonus question: If Old Irina spent her 'favored class' bonus on hp instead of skills, would this 1hp per hd taken into consideration before the 'no less than 1' rule, or after?

[BillyGoat]

If you don't want to roll 7d6 and apply the -3 to each HD, she gets the 7 HD.

This is because, as you, you get at least one HP per HD. Read Page 16 of the core rulebook for confirmation.

The strictest reading of "Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain" (page 555 of the same book) stipulates that your penalty from Constitution damage would temporarily drop her by 7 HP. If you gave her average HP, she's staggering around at 0 HP all the time, trying to avoid a stiff wind.

For anyone who says that the rules on page 16 for Constitution to HP generally trump the rules on page 555 for Constitution damage specifically, remember that Pathfinder explicitly follows the principle of "specific trumps general". The specific rules for ability score damage trump the general rules for constitution score to HP.

But, if you want to be less drastic, you could always argue that the Constitution to HP rule is non-violable, even in the case of Con damage. Your table, your rules.

[Gui_Shih]

Shouldn't common sense dictate that the combination of being very old and sick would likely result in death?

[IejirIsk]

to answer the second -hd/level

the favored class(only PC and pseudo PC) would apply after.

first question: seems like 7

**bet i get sniped

[Kazaan]

I think Old Irina just wants you to take her off life support already. This really just demonstrates the effects of wasting sickness on the elderly; they are not able to handle it as well as a younger person and what would normally be an inconvenience to a person with greater constitution can actually be lethal to a person in the Venerable age category with particularly low Con.

[LazarX]

Midnight_Angel wrote:

Well, let's have a look at our villige Elder, Old Irina, a 7th level Commoner.

As her title implies, Old Irina is very old. Venerable, to be precise, reducing her constitution score from the 11 she had when she was spry to a measly 5. The fact she did not use her favored class bonus to improve her toughness does not make things better.

Prize question: How many hp does Old Irina have when uninjured?

a) 7d6-21 means an average of 3.5 per d6, for a 0.5 per d6-3, thus she has 0.5 x 7 = 3.5 hp, rounding down to 3.
b) 7, as you cannot have less max hp than hd.
c) Every single hd yields at least 1 hp. Thus, 1d6-3 will result in 1,1,1,1,2 or 3 hp, for an average of 1.5 (9 divided by 6). Irina has 10 hp.

Now, to complicate things, Irina has fallen ill, and is suffering a -2 constitution penalty. How to adjust her maximum hp?

a) Just deduct 7 from her max hp?
b) as per a), but she cannot drop lower than 7, as this is the number of ger hd?
c) re-calculate the average hp per hd (for a new average of 1 1/6), granting her a whopping 8 hp?

Bonus question: If Old Irina spent her 'favored class' bonus on hp instead of skills, would this 1hp per hd taken into consideration before the 'no less than 1' rule, or after?

Is there a reason we're getting so anal about an NPC? NPCs are story driven, you want her to kick off, just do so. If you want her to recover the same. Are you really one of those DM's who needs to look up rules materials to see if players can tie their own shoes?

[Dazz]

I would say 10 HP, since age is a permanent reduction to your score and not exactly constitution damage or drain. So you would be right in saying that you can't have less than 1 HP per HD.

Because the disease does constitution damage, it does reduce her HP by 1 per HD--7. She would be walking around at 3 HP, and if the disease progressed to where she took 2 more constitution damage she would die (-4 HP with a con now at 3, she is past HP = constitution score). As far as roleplaying goes anytime she's sick and taking constitution damage she would likely be bedridden.

If you deem her an important enough NPC to get a favored class bonus, that would count after the 1 HP/HD, so she could have a max of 17 normally if she used every single point for hit points.

Yes, people who weren't extra healthy in their youth tend to be very frail in their 70s and 80s. Starting with a constitution of 11 it's very lucky she lived to that age to begin with.

But as LazarX said, you are the DM and can improvise this kind of stuff. Whether she's at 0 HP or 3, by technical rules an angry cat could knock her out in a round or two so it's unlikely she's in any combat for exact HP to matter. Just do what makes sense and fits well in your campaign.

[BillyGoat]

LazarX wrote:

Is there a reason we're getting so anal about an NPC? NPCs are story driven, you want her to kick off, just do so. If you want her to recover the same. Are you really one of those DM's who needs to look up rules materials to see if players can tie their own shoes?

Or, they're just looking to keep their mechanics consistently applied.

Or, they're trying to make sure they understand the rules, using an NPC example b/c it's less likely to start a flame war than saying "so I have this low-Con PC that I'm trying to kill/notkill with disease, am I reading the rules right?"

Also, internal consistency is a good goal to strive for, as long as you're willing and have the time to do so. That internal consistency is generally how you maintain verisimilitude & the willing suspension of disbelief. Why make it needlessly harder if you have the time and inclination to verify that what you want works within the rules, instead of auto-hand-waving?

That being said, I completely understand the counter-argument of not having the time to do the extra work & having more important elements of craft to focus on. Hence the caveat in the above having said time and inclination.

[Selgard]

The rules for Constitution state that you always get 1 hp per die. So no matter how low your con drops, you never can fall below your HD in base HP.

For our 7th level commoner with a 5 constitution this means even if she rolled absolute maximum for each HD she'd have 30 hp, with a -3 per die applied so she'd be at 9. So if she misses "max" twice with her rolling then she's at 7. And she'll remain at 7 unless she levels up.

So given that- I think either B or C would be the way to go, depending on if you rolled her HD or took the average. (though in reality, the chances of her rolling 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 are slim enough that she'll end up at 7 regardless of the method you choose).

Now she falls ill and takes further con damage. Unless the disease (or poison, attack, or whatever) specifies that it alters the normal rules for Constition and HP, her falling sick doesn't really change her HP much. It does change her "health" though. Even if she had a billion HP, getting to 0 con means you are dead.

So if she's alredy at 7 HP then you leave it there. If she's higher than 7 when she takes further con hit, then you'd adjust it accordingly downwards- to a minimum of 7.

Though the real fun starts when you try to figure out how to apply the con damage rules to someone who's already low on HP. Can you die from con damage HP loss, before you run out of con?
(lets say NPC was in a nasty fight with her cat and a 1hp when she gets sick. She can't lose max HP, but does her actual HP fall?)

-S

[IejirIsk]

i admit i was slightly mistaken. the non-damage hp cannot be lower than HD.

someone that takes con damage loses both max/current hp equal to HD if it lowers con modifier.

same thing with barb... barb being knocked outta rage is in trouble.