| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I'm having a big discussion with my GM about the multiclassing and the companion lvl stacks of the cavalier and the wildblooded sylvan sorcerer.
By now I'm lvl 11 cavalier so companion is lvl 11, but at my new lvl I want to lvl as a sylvan sorcerer to use de Boon companion (at lvl 13 feat) and the Robe of Arcane Heritage. If I do so, I think I will be lvl 11 cavalier/1 wildblooded with a lvl 13 companion, and in my next lvl up and the use of the Boon Companion feat I say I will be 12 cavalier/ 1 Wildblood with a lvl 17 companion.
Obviously my master says that's not posible because first of all the two classes efective druid's level doesn't stack to determine the Companion level, and second because with the use of the Robe of Arcane Heritage I can't raise the level of the companion,I will just obtain new abilities of the Bloodline progression.
So who of the two is right?
Sorry for my english...
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You cannot raise your effective level for companions above your character level.
So if you are a Cavalier 11/Sorcerer 2, you're a level 13 character. With the feat and the robes, you would count as a level 13 for your companion and a level 6 for sorcerer bloodline powers.
At Cavalier 11/Sorcerer 4, the boon companion feat would let you use 15 as your level for the companion and the robes would mean an 8 for sorcerer powers. However, the companion caps out here because the feat is only worth +4. So 11/5 would still mean level 15 for the animal companion.
|
There might also be an issue with the Robes of Arcane Heritage. They state "The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects".
The Sylvan Sorcerer's pet is both a bloodline power and your Arcana, and the Robes don't have any impact on Arcana.
You cannot raise your effective level for companions above your character level.
Where do you see this rule? It's true of the Boon Companion feat, but there are other ways to raise your effective level for whatever ability gives you a mount/animal companion. For instance, with the Aasimar oracle favored class bonus, applied to the Bonded Mount revelation.
Obviously my master says that's not posible because first of all the two classes efective druid's level doesn't stack to determine the Companion level, and second because with the use of the Robe of Arcane Heritage I can't raise the level of the companion,I will just obtain new abilities of the Bloodline progression.
I've seen other threads on these topics, and I believe the general consensus (though not universal) is:
1. Levels stack for your mount/animal companion, as long as the animal you have is a legal choice for BOTH classes.2. Robes of Arcane Heritage increase your effective level for determining what bloodline powers you can use and their effect. So it will increase your effective druid level from Sorc-3 to Sorc+1. However the Boon Companion feat can't raise it higher than your character level, so it will have no effect on you.
So you're right about having an EDL of 13 at Cavalier 11/Sorcerer 1 with the Robes. But the Boon Companion feat won't improve that any further.
There might also be an issue with the Robes of Arcane Heritage. They state "The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects".
The Sylvan Sorcerer's pet is both a bloodline power and your Arcana, and the Robes don't have any impact on Arcana.
But it says it affects bloodline powers; it doesn't say it only affects things that are not arcana. It is a bloodline power, so it is affected.
|
|
"Animal Companion (Ex): You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st). This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch."
It counts as your bloodline arcana. Robes of arcane heritage don't affect arcana.
The Animal companion from multiple classes stacks as per the Rules of animal companions in the Core Rule Book.
"Class Level: This is the character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics."
The Sylvan Sorcerer is Level -3 for effective druid level minimum of 1. Boon Companion can fill in the 3 levels lost. So with that you would not lose any effective level.
The Robe of Arcane Heritage only counts 4 levels higher for blood powers. Now the Companion is a 1st level blood line power but it also you blood line Arcana. You can't raise one with out the other. So the Robe isn't of value here unless you only plan to take a 1 level dip. At 3rd you get Woodland stride, being higher level for that doesn't do much. Greater Invisibility at 9th level is nice though. You'd get that with 5 levels of sorcerer with the robe.
"Animal Companion (Ex): You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st). This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch."
It counts as your bloodline arcana. Robes of arcane heritage don't affect arcana.
It's a bloodline power. Robes of Arcane Heritage affects bloodline powers. There is nothing in the description that suggests it would fail to affect bloodline powers, just because they count as something else as well.
|
|
I've also pointed out before, the effect of this Arcana is that you gain an Animal Companion. This is not a scaling effect. It is a static benefit "Gain an Animal Companion".
Animal Companions have their own ability :"Class Level: This is the character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.
So Robes of Arcane Heritage still make no difference, as they do not give a scaling benefit.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
It's a bloodline power. Robes of Arcane Heritage affects bloodline powers. There is nothing in the description that suggests it would fail to affect bloodline powers, just because they count as something else as well."Animal Companion (Ex): You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st). This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch."
It counts as your bloodline arcana. Robes of arcane heritage don't affect arcana.
RainyDayNinja is correct, the Robes would raise your effective level for the Sylvan companion (because it is a bloodline POWER, it doesn't matter if it also COUNTS as your arcana), so you'd end up with a net +1 gain in companion level. Boon Companion can't raise this at all, however, since it specifically says that you can't use it to raise the companion's level above your character level. So the BEST you can hope for with the robes is the following:
Cavalier 11/Sylvan Sorcerer 1: Put on robes of Heritage. Your level for Cavalier is 11, for Sorcerer is 1 (because that's the minimum) so you're looking at a total of 11 [cav] + 1 [sorc] + 4 [robes] = 16. At subsequent levels, this would not go up at all (because your effective druid level for your Sylvan levels stays at 1 until level 5), until you hit level 16, at which point your companion would be that of a level 17 character (11 [cav] + 3 [sorc] + 4 [robes])
So, essentially, if you're trying to get your companion as high as possible, the best way is to only dip a single level in Sylvan Sorcerer and put on the robes. This gives you a total boost of +4 above your own character level, with a max of 24 at 20th level (19 [cav] + 1 [sorc] + 4 [robes].
Of course, some people would argue that the robes would only be worth +1 at Sylvan Sorc level 1 because 1 [sorc] + 4 [robes] - 3 [sorc penalty] = 2. I disagree, but that interpretation is fair.
I've also pointed out before, the effect of this Arcana is that you gain an Animal Companion. This is not a scaling effect. It is a static benefit "Gain an Animal Companion".
Animal Companions have their own ability :"Class Level: This is the character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.
So Robes of Arcane Heritage still make no difference, as they do not give a scaling benefit.
Huh? So you think "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)" is just flavor text? I honestly don't see how you can read that part of the ability, and say it doesn't scale with level.
EDIT:
Of course, some people would argue that the robes would only be worth +1 at Sylvan Sorc level 1 because 1 [sorc] + 4 [robes] - 3 [sorc penalty] = 2. I disagree, but that interpretation is fair.
Why do you disagree?
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
I've also pointed out before, the effect of this Arcana is that you gain an Animal Companion. This is not a scaling effect. It is a static benefit "Gain an Animal Companion".
Animal Companions have their own ability :"Class Level: This is the character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.
So Robes of Arcane Heritage still make no difference, as they do not give a scaling benefit.
If it was a static benefit, then they wouldn't have had to specify that your Sorcerer level - 3 is your effective Druid level. The benefit of the bloodline power is you gain an animal companion and its abilities scale based on your Sorcerer level as if you were a druid.
|
|
If it was a static benefit, then they wouldn't have had to specify that your Sorcerer level - 3 is your effective Druid level. The benefit of the bloodline power is you gain an animal companion and its abilities scale based on your Sorcerer level as if you were a druid.I've also pointed out before, the effect of this Arcana is that you gain an Animal Companion. This is not a scaling effect. It is a static benefit "Gain an Animal Companion".
Animal Companions have their own ability :"Class Level: This is the character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.
So Robes of Arcane Heritage still make no difference, as they do not give a scaling benefit.
And if your actual level raises, that's great. But the benefit of tha bility doesn't scale like "deal 1d6 plus an additional d6 per x levels". It is always "Animal Companion (Ex): You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)."
Robes of Arcane Heritage don't raise your effective druid level, and the effect doesn't change as you level. It is always "Animal Companion (Ex): You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)."
Effects that raise your effective druid level, like Boon Companion, work just fine. Robes of Arcane Heritage do nothing for this ability. They raise your level to determine the effects of your Bloodline powers. The only effect of the power is "You gain an animal companion".
It's a bloodline power. Robes of Arcane Heritage affects bloodline powers. There is nothing in the description that suggests it would fail to affect bloodline powers, just because they count as something else as well."Animal Companion (Ex): You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st). This bloodline power counts as your bloodline arcana and also replaces laughing touch."
It counts as your bloodline arcana. Robes of arcane heritage don't affect arcana.
That's a plausible interpretation but your statement that "there's nothing to suggest" otherwise is definitely incorrect, since other people have interpreted it differently based on the text. Obviously there is something to suggest it, even if that's not your reading.
However, that said, I agree with you.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
If it was a static benefit, then they wouldn't have had to specify that your Sorcerer level - 3 is your effective Druid level. The benefit of the bloodline power is you gain an animal companion and its abilities scale based on your Sorcerer level as if you were a druid.I've also pointed out before, the effect of this Arcana is that you gain an Animal Companion. This is not a scaling effect. It is a static benefit "Gain an Animal Companion".
Animal Companions have their own ability :"Class Level: This is the character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.
So Robes of Arcane Heritage still make no difference, as they do not give a scaling benefit.And if your actual level raises, that's great. But the benefit of tha bility doesn't scale like "deal 1d6 plus an additional d6 per x levels". It is always "Animal Companion (Ex): You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)."
Robes of Arcane Heritage don't raise your effective druid level, and the effect doesn't change as you level. It is always "Animal Companion (Ex): You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)."
Effects that raise your effective druid level, like Boon Companion, work just fine. Robes of Arcane Heritage do nothing for this ability. They raise your level to determine the effects of your Bloodline powers. The only effect of the power is "You gain an animal companion".
The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects.
The effect of this bloodline power is that you have an animal companion of which you are treated as your sorcerer level -3 (minimum 1). The robes make it so you're treated as that number +4. How can that not be considered a scaling bonus?
|
|
Because the Robes don't do that.
Here is the effect of the ability. "You gain an Animal Companion." Here is a qualifer of the ability "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)."
Robes of Arcane Heritage allow you to " treat your sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects."
The ability has one effect. "You gain an animal companion".
Animal companions have their own ability which states "Class Level: This is the character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics."
Since the Robes don't actually raise your level, they have no effect on your animal companion.
Because the Robes don't do that.
Here is the effect of the ability. "You gain an Animal Companion." Here is a qualifer of the ability "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)."Robes of Arcane Heritage allow you to " treat your sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects."
The ability has one effect. "You gain an animal companion".
Animal companions have their own ability which states "Class Level: This is the character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics."Since the Robes don't actually raise your level, they have no effect on your animal companion.
You know, I keep trying to formulate a response to your argument, but you keep contradicting yourself, and making claims that fly in the face of the meaning of the words you're using.
You say that the phrase "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)" is not part of the effect. But then you say that gaining levels will increase the power of your animal companion, so obviously it's affecting it. But then you say that calculating the effects as if you're 4 levels higher works differently than calculating the effects if you actually are 4 levels higher. Somehow, this is because the effect isn't scaling, even though you've already said that it becomes more powerful if you gain levels, which is the very definition of scaling. Your claims in this thread are self-contradictory.
|
|
You know, I keep trying to formulate a response to your argument, but you keep contradicting yourself, and making claims that fly in the face of the meaning of the words you're using.
You say that the phrase "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)" is not part of the effect. But then you say that gaining levels will increase the power of your animal companion, so obviously it's affecting it. But then you say that calculating the effects as if you're 4 levels higher works differently than calculating the effects if you actually are 4 levels higher. Somehow, this is because the effect isn't scaling, even though you've already said that it becomes more powerful if you gain levels, which is the very definition of scaling. Your claims in this thread are self-contradictory.
You'll have to forgive me if this comes off as rude, it's not meant to, but it's your reading comprehension that's the issue, not that I'm contradicting myself.
The Bloodline ability has one effect "You gain an animal companion".
No matter what level you are, that effect does not change. It will always be "You gain an animal companion." Exactly the same for a level 1 sorcerer or a level 20 sorcerer. Your level in no way impacts the effect of this ability. The phrase "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)" is a qualifier of the Bloodline's effect, so that you know how to calculate your druid level. No matter how high your level goes, the effect of the bloodline will always be "Animal Companion (Ex): You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)". It doesn't suddenly become "Animal Companion (Ex): You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 2 (minimum 1st)" or "Animal Companion (Ex): You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level +5 (minimum 1st)" when you hit 10th, or 20th level. The ability is always exactly the same, regardless of level.
Now, Animal Companions have a class feature which states:"Class Level: This is the character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics."
So effects that raise your druid level, raise your animal companions level as well. This is a feature of the animal companion, not an effect of the bloodline ability, so Robes of Arcane Heritage have no effect on it, because the Robes don't raise your effective druid level. They don't increase your actual level at all.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know, I keep trying to formulate a response to your argument, but you keep contradicting yourself, and making claims that fly in the face of the meaning of the words you're using.
You say that the phrase "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)" is not part of the effect. But then you say that gaining levels will increase the power of your animal companion, so obviously it's affecting it. But then you say that calculating the effects as if you're 4 levels higher works differently than calculating the effects if you actually are 4 levels higher. Somehow, this is because the effect isn't scaling, even though you've already said that it becomes more powerful if you gain levels, which is the very definition of scaling. Your claims in this thread are self-contradictory.
You'll have to forgive me if this comes off as rude, it's not meant to, but it's your reading comprehension that's the issue, not that I'm contradicting myself.
The Bloodline ability has one effect "You gain an animal companion".
No matter what level you are, that effect does not change. It will always be "You gain an animal companion." Exactly the same for a level 1 sorcerer or a level 20 sorcerer. Your level in no way impacts the effect of this ability.Now, Animal Companions have a class feature which states:"Class Level: This is the character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics."
So effects that raise your druid level, raise your animal companions level as well. This is a feature of the animal companion, not an effect of the bloodline ability, so Robes of Arcane Heritage have no effect on it.
Animal Companions can't HAVE a class feature, because they ARE a class feature. What you're suggesting is analagous to saying "Bards get Bardic Performance as a class feature, but each of their performances are not class features, they are abilities that the Bardic Performance class feature possesses."
That's not how it works! An animal companion is a class feature of the Druid, which other classes can have access to through special abilities and archetypes. That class feature includes ALL of the rules listed in the Animal Companions section of the core rulebook. They are a complex class feature, which is why they have their own section as opposed to being written up as part of the Druid class description, but they're still a class feature, just as a Familiar is a class feature of Wizard (and other classes can get access to it).
The Sylvan bloodline has a bloodline power that gives you the Animal Companion CLASS FEATURE of a druid of your sorcerer level - 3. That's how it works. Since it's a bloodline power, the Robes of Arcane Heritage boost your effective class level for that bloodline power, which in this case is your "effective druid level", which becomes your sorcerer level + 1.
It's not an issue of my reading comprehension. I understant exactly what you wrote. The problem is that what you wrote is illogical and self-contradictory.
I never tried to claim that the text of the ability changed to "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 2 (minimum 1st)" or anything like that. Now you're just making stuff up and putting words in my mouth.
So, since you think you are so much my superior in reading comprehension, can you explain to me what exactly led you to decide which part is the "effect" and which part is only a "qualifier"? I look forward to the explanation of your hermeneutics.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The phrase "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)" is a qualifier of the Bloodline's effect, so that you know how to calculate your druid level.
So, it's your belief that a qualifier which defines how an effect works is not, in fact, part of said effect?
On what do you base this belief?
Super stars....
|
|
Cartman,
I get what you're saying, but here's the thing.
The Animal companion class feature is complex. Absolutely. But that doesn't matter.
The Sylvan sorcerer's abiilty has one effect "You gain an animal companion". No matter how high your level is for Bloodline effects, it just doesn't matter, because the effect is always going to be "You gain an animal companion". That particular ability comes with its own rules and everything like that but that doesn't matter.
If I had a Bloodline Power that said "You gain Weapon Training in the Fighter weapon Group of your choice" wearing Robes of Arcane Heritage wouldn't suddenly give additional instances of Weapon Training, or make Weapon Training any better. I got Weapon Training, that was the effect of the Bloodline Power, and now I follow the rules for Weapon Training.
|
|
It's not an issue of my reading comprehension. I understant exactly what you wrote. The problem is that what you wrote is illogical and self-contradictory.
I never tried to claim that the text of the ability changed to "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 2 (minimum 1st)" or anything like that. Now you're just making stuff up and putting words in my mouth.
So, since you think you are so much my superior in reading comprehension, can you explain to me what exactly led you to decide which part is the "effect" and which part is only a "qualifier"? I look forward to the explanation of your hermeneutics.
The period in the sentence.
"You gain an animal companion". Period. " Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)". New sentence, qualifying the determination of the previous sentence. There is no contradiction in stating that there was only one effect there, nor in stating that the effects of the bloodline power don't scale with level. They don't. The effect is always, no matter what level you are, "You gain an animal companion".
Now, Animal Companions have their own rules determining their power based on effective druid level, etc., but that has nothing to do with the fact that the effect of the Bloodline power is set and unchanging. "Animal Companion (Ex): You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)" is exactly the same at 20th level as it is at 1st.
And I never claimed that my reading comprehension was superior to yours, just that, while you can disagree about the conclusion I'm arriving at, I never contradicted myself, and I if you believe I did the fault lies with you, not with me.
"Animal Companion (Ex): You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)" is exactly the same at 20th level as it is at 1st.
I agree with this statement. However, that means that at 1st level, your effective druid level is 1. At 5th level, your effective druid level is 2. At 20th level, your effective druid level is 17, and so on. Therefore, the effect scales with level, which you have flatly denied.
EDIT: Besides, if you apply the same "logic" (and I use the term ironically here) regarding "effects" and "qualifiers" to the other bloodlines, that means that the vast majority do not scale with level either.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The phrase "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)" is a qualifier of the Bloodline's effect, so that you know how to calculate your druid level.So, it's your belief that a qualifier which defines how an effect works is not, in fact, part of said effect?
On what do you base this belief?
Jiggy, what I'm saying is, is that the effect of the Bloodline Power is "You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)". This stays exactly the same at all levels of play. It never changes. Since it never changes, the Robes of Arcane Heritage which state "The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects" has absolutely no impact on the ability. If I'm 4th level, the effect of the Sylvan ability is ""You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)". If I put on Robes of Arcane Heritage and my effective sorcerer level for "the purpose of determining what bloodline powers I can use and their effects" is now 8, the effect of that ability is still "You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)".
Unlike, say the Bloodline Power Acidic Ray which states "Starting at 1st level, you can fire an acidic ray as a standard action, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. The acidic ray deals 1d6 points of acid damage + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier"So that same sorcer, 4th level, right? His Acidic ray does 1d6+2 damage. If I put on the robes, it does 1d6+4. This effect scales with level. "The acidic ray deals 1d6 points of acid damage + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess" means that this ability changes depending on my level.
The Bloodline "Animal Companion" will never change. There is only one, singular effect, with no provision for scaling in place. It wiil always be, whether at 1 or 20 "You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)".
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
Cartman,
I get what you're saying, but here's the thing.
The Animal companion class feature is complex. Absolutely. But that doesn't matter.
The Sylvan sorcerer's abiilty has one effect "You gain an animal companion". No matter how high your level is for Bloodline effects, it just doesn't matter, because the effect is always going to be "You gain an animal companion". That particular ability comes with its own rules and everything like that but that doesn't matter.If I had a Bloodline Power that said "You gain Weapon Training in the Fighter weapon Group of your choice" wearing Robes of Arcane Heritage wouldn't suddenly give additional instances of Weapon Training, or make Weapon Training any better. I got Weapon Training, that was the effect of the Bloodline Power, and now I follow the rules for Weapon Training.
I just can't see why you're sticking with this. The period in the sentence means nothing. I don't think we're ever going to agree, so I'll say "agree to disagree" on this one. It seems so cut-and-dry to me, I just can't see it from your point of view on this one. Sorry, and no hard feelings!
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
@Ssalarn: So how come the period at the end of the first sentence of the companion-granting power marks the end of the "effect", but the period at the end of the first sentence of the acidic ray power isn't handled the same way?
Why aren't you saying that the acidic ray has only one effect? "Starting at 1st level, you can fire an acidic ray as a standard action, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack." That line is still true at 5th level, 10th level, and 17th level. Why aren't you calling the line about how much damage it deals a "qualifier", like you're doing with the companion ability?
With one ability, you're saying that the first sentence is the effect and that the second sentence is just a qualifier.
With the other, you're saying that both the first AND second sentences are effects.
Why?
|
|
"Animal Companion (Ex): You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)" is exactly the same at 20th level as it is at 1st.I agree with this statement. However, that means that at 1st level, your effective druid level is 1. At 5th level, your effective druid level is 2. At 20th level, your effective druid level is 17, and so on. Therefore, the effect scales with level, which you have flatly denied.
You are drawing inferences, not illogical ones, but inferences nonetheless. The effect of the Bloodline ability is "]"Animal Companion (Ex): You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)".
Suddenly being able to count as 8th level for the effects of an ability instead of 4th changes nothing about the "Animal Companion" Bloodline ability. "You gain an animal companion" stays exactly the same. "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)" stays exactly the same. Since no effect of the ability has changed, and my actual level is still the same, Robes of Arcane Heritage do nothing.
As I said in my post to Cheapy, compare that to say the Bloodline Power Acidic Ray which states "Starting at 1st level, you can fire an acidic ray as a standard action, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. The acidic ray deals 1d6 points of acid damage + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier"
So that same sorcer, 4th level, right? His Acidic ray does 1d6+2 damage. If I put on the robes, it does 1d6+4. This effect scales with level. "The acidic ray deals 1d6 points of acid damage + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess" means that this ability changes depending on my level.
Meanwhile, the Bloodline "Animal Companion" will never change. There is only one, singular effect, with no provision for scaling in place. It wiil always be, whether at 1 or 20 "You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)".
|
|
@Ssalarn: So how come the period at the end of the first sentence of the companion-granting power marks the end of the "effect", but the period at the end of the first sentence of the acidic ray power isn't handled the same way?
Why aren't you saying that the acidic ray has only one effect? "Starting at 1st level, you can fire an acidic ray as a standard action, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack." That line is still true at 5th level, 10th level, and 17th level. Why aren't you calling the line about how much damage it deals a "qualifier", like you're doing with the companion ability?
With one ability, you're saying that the first sentence is the effect and that the second sentence is just a qualifier.
With the other, you're saying that both the first AND second sentences are effects.
Why?
Jiggy, please read my post to you. It doesn't matter if you read one as the effect, and one as the qualifier, because neither changes with level. In Acidic Ray, the sentences which follow the first qualify how the ability works, with a provision for scaling. The Bloodline Animal Companion has no such provision. No portion of the ability contains a level-based variable. "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)" is not a variable. It is a constant, never changing as you go from 1-20. If your total effect is "You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)" than being able to count as level 8 for the effect of this power makes no mechanical difference. The power still says "You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)". Since my sorcerer level didn't actually increase, and nothing raised my effective druid level, my animal companion stays exactly the same.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Jiggy, please read my post to you. It doesn't matter if you read one as the effect, and one as the qualifier, because neither changes with level. In Acidic Ray, the sentences which follow the first qualify how the ability works, with a provision for scaling. The Bloodline Animal Companion has no such provision. No portion of the ability contains a level-based variable. "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)" is not a variable. It is a constant, never changing as you go from 1-20. If your total effect is "You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)" than being able to count as level 8 for the effect of this power makes no mechanical difference. The power still says "You gain an animal companion. Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level – 3 (minimum 1st)". Since my sorcerer level didn't actually increase, and nothing raised my effective druid level, my animal companion stays exactly the same.@Ssalarn: So how come the period at the end of the first sentence of the companion-granting power marks the end of the "effect", but the period at the end of the first sentence of the acidic ray power isn't handled the same way?
Why aren't you saying that the acidic ray has only one effect? "Starting at 1st level, you can fire an acidic ray as a standard action, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack." That line is still true at 5th level, 10th level, and 17th level. Why aren't you calling the line about how much damage it deals a "qualifier", like you're doing with the companion ability?
With one ability, you're saying that the first sentence is the effect and that the second sentence is just a qualifier.
With the other, you're saying that both the first AND second sentences are effects.
Why?
But... my... what???? *HEAD EXPLODES*
Ok. Let me see here. For the animal companion ability, you're saying that the statement "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level - 3 (minimum first)" is a static amount, not affected by boosts to your sorcerer level. That just makes NO sense to me. Robes of arcane heritage boost your sorcerer level for the purposes of a bloodline power. Boosting the sorcerer level boosts the effective druid level. Case closed. How can it be ANY CLEARER?
|
|
[But... my... what???? *HEAD EXPLODES*
Ok. Let me see here. For the animal companion ability, you're saying that the statement "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level - 3 (minimum first)" is a static amount, not affected by boosts to your sorcerer level. That just makes NO sense to me. Robes of arcane heritage boost your sorcerer level for the purposes of a bloodline power. Boosting the sorcerer level boosts the effective druid level. Case closed. How can it be ANY CLEARER?
I'm saying that the effect doesn't changed based on your level. The animal companion you gain as a result of taking the Bloodline Powerdoes increase in power, but that 's not an effect of the abiilty. Its singular effect is to provide you with the animal companion clas feature, using your level -3 as your effective druid level. The statement "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level - 3 (minimum first)" doesn't change, doesn't contain a variable. Robes of Arcane Heritage don't actually increase your Sorcerer level; they state "The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects". The effect(s) of this ability are "You gain an animal companion" no change their between levels 1 and 20; and the qualifier, or continuation of the effect "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level - 3 (minimum first)". Still the same, regardless of level. Since nothing changed, Robes of Arcane Heritage hasn't had any impact.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm saying that the effect doesn't changed based on your level. The statement "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level - 3 (minimum first)" doesn't change, doesn't contain a variable. Robes of Arcane Heritage don't actually increase your Sorcerer level; they state "The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects". The effect(s) of this ability are "You gain an animal companion" no change their between levels 1 and 20; and the qualifier, or continuation of the effect "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level - 3 (minimum first)". Still the same, regardless of level. Since nothing changed, Robes of Arcane Heritage hasn't had any impact.[But... my... what???? *HEAD EXPLODES*
Ok. Let me see here. For the animal companion ability, you're saying that the statement "Your effective druid level for this ability is equal to your sorcerer level - 3 (minimum first)" is a static amount, not affected by boosts to your sorcerer level. That just makes NO sense to me. Robes of arcane heritage boost your sorcerer level for the purposes of a bloodline power. Boosting the sorcerer level boosts the effective druid level. Case closed. How can it be ANY CLEARER?
But the variable is right there. "sorcerer level". That's a variable. The robes alter that variable for this bloodline power. It goes from X to X + 4, when it comes to this specific bloodline power.
I know we're just trading the same argument back and forth, but I just can't see how you're interpreting it that way. At all.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
@Ssalarn, regarding the PM you sent me:
Just because you think that the results of a mechanic working a certain way can't be a good thing, doesn't mean that the rules are unclear or that there are two equally-valid interpretations. Also, flagging an individual post with the "FAQ" button puts it in a queue for developer attention, but lengthening a thread with repetitions of your position doesn't improve the chances of it being addressed. There have been lots of threads in the past that were much longer than this one, where the general consensus was that one very obvious interpretation was correct, and one or two people kept up the debate, and the FAQ flag was eventually marked as "No response required" because it was obvious how [insert topic here] really works.
|
|
@Ssalarn, regarding the PM you sent me:
Just because you think that the results of a mechanic working a certain way can't be a good thing, doesn't mean that the rules are unclear or that there are two equally-valid interpretations. Also, flagging an individual post with the "FAQ" button puts it in a queue for developer attention, but lengthening a thread with repetitions of your position doesn't improve the chances of it being addressed. There have been lots of threads in the past that were much longer than this one, where the general consensus was that one very obvious interpretation was correct, and one or two people kept up the debate, and the FAQ flag was eventually marked as "No response required" because it was obvious how [insert topic here] really works.
If you have such a thread please link it. Because I can link other threads identical to this one that have yet to be answered. This particular subject comes up over and over. I'm not trying to seem like a blind jerk who isn't acknowledgin that anyone else's interpretation is valid. I apologize if anyone feels that way.
I think my statement still stands as a valid interpretation of RAW though, and one that probably has the backing of RAI.
Also your statement "but lengthening a thread with repetitions of your position doesn't improve the chances of it being addressed" is factually inaccurate. Just ask the Ragelancepounce guys. The more a subject is discussed, the more likely it is to be addressed. Unfortunately, this particular loophole in the rules is one that fewer people have interacted with, and most of those who stumble upon it really aren't interested in seeing it FAQ'd or errata'd out of being should it actually get dev attention.
So the best wat to address it, is to discuss it.
I created a beast...
Ok another question regarding the sorcerer and the robes.
Since the robes increase your "efective" level as a sorcerer +4 to calculate the benefices of the bloodline thats means that at level 1 (+4) the sorcerer will gain 2 extras spells?
Bloodline:
At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
I created a beast...
Ok another question regarding the sorcerer and the robes.
Since the robes increase your "efective" level as a sorcerer +4 to calculate the benefices of the bloodline thats means that at level 1 (+4) the sorcerer will gain 2 extras spells?
Bloodline:
At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.
No, that's not a bloodline power, so those wouldn't be included in the Robes' boost. The Robes only treat you as four levels higher for bloodline POWERS. The bloodline spells are not part of a bloodline power, so they do not advance from the Robes. Besides that, you wouldn't have spell slots to cast those higher-level spells with anyway.
Ok ty :D