Quick ninja question

[Bigdaddyjug]

So I rolled up a ninja for an upcoming AP. I decided not to go the TWF route because it just seems too feat intensive for the concept as I wanted to take some more defensive minded feats like Dodge and Mobility (in case I decide to go Shadowdancer).

I was planning on using a wakizashi and picking up Finesse Rogue as my lvl 2 ninja trick. However, I was wondering if I wouldn't be better off being a Str based ninja and using a katana.

I currently hav 14 Str and 18 Dex, but I could easily swap those. This would also open up the lvl 2 ninja trick for me to pick up Fast Stealth and Vanishing Trick 2 levels earlier each.

Does this seem like a better idea? Also, what would be the benefits/detriments of wielding the katana in 2 hands instead of one-handed?

[Mystically Inclined]

I'd try to make weapon finesse your level 1 feat. Baring that, I'd take it as the level 3 feat.

I'd think long and hard before taking anything OTHER than vanishing trick at level 2.

[Kolokotroni]

Getting vanishing trick as soon as possible is always a good idea for a ninja. That said, you might want to split the difference and try to get a 16str and 16 dex, since ninjas are lightly armored characters. Otherwise your defensive feats wont mean a whole lot of your ac is already low.

That said, if you are going to attack with a single weapon, i would strongly recommend strength, the so called brute rogue is a great way to do when you only have a single weapon to fight with, and ofcourse the katana being in your proficiencies is one of the big advantages for the ninja.

[Mystically Inclined]

Unless you use a shield (which requires shield proficiency), or use a feat that requires a free hand (such as weapon finesse), or you need a hand free to hold a wand or other magic item (not a problem early on), there is no advantage to using a katana one-handed.

Wielding it two handed gives a bonus to damage. With 14 Str, it would be 1d8+3 rather than +2. With 18 Str, it would be 1d8+6 rather than +4.

[Bigdaddyjug]

MI, I agree and I think Vanishing Trick is better than Fast Stealth. The reason I was taking Finesse Rogue with lvl 2 ninja trick is I was taking Combat Reflexes and Dodge as my lvl 1 feats (I'm human).

Kolo, I think I am definitely going to go the brute rogue route and use a katana.

Dropping Str to 16 and putting Dex up to 16 only gives me 1 more AC. Being a 3/4 BAB class, I think I'll stick at 18/14 for the extra +1 to hit.

I will definitely talk it over with my DM, though, because that could give me another point or 2 in the buy to put in another ability.

[Hayato Ken]

There are other possibilities. If you know you can flank, shadow clone can be a decent defensive option. You could also use a reach weapon to bring you in distance. I would then strongly consider a weapon focus.

If you can bring up some decent CHA and Ki, forgotten trick might also be good despite the high cost, because it gives you a lot of flexibility. At least for the normal 3 fights a day schedule.

[Weables]

Mystically Inclined wrote:

Unless you use a shield (which requires shield proficiency), or use a feat that requires a free hand (such as weapon finesse), or you need a hand free to hold a wand or other magic item (not a problem early on), there is no advantage to using a katana one-handed.

Wielding it two handed gives a bonus to damage. With 14 Str, it would be 1d8+3 rather than +2. With 18 Str, it would be 1d8+6 rather than +4.

just so we're clear, weapon finesse does not require a free hand. perhaps you were thinking of dervish dance?

[Mystically Inclined]

I might be thinking of 3.0 weapon finesse. Or since I relate weapon finesse with Errol Flynn, I could have confused the image with the mechanics. It's been a while since I looked at the feat.

[Weables]

all good. just wanted to make sure there was no misinformation for new players.

[Bigdaddyjug]

Hayato Ken wrote:

There are other possibilities. If you know you can flank, shadow clone can be a decent defensive option. You could also use a reach weapon to bring you in distance. I would then strongly consider a weapon focus.

If you can bring up some decent CHA and Ki, forgotten trick might also be good despite the high cost, because it gives you a lot of flexibility. At least for the normal 3 fights a day schedule.

I would have to spend a feat to obtain specialization in a reach weapon, unless I wanted to use a kusarigami which doesn't do a whole lot of damage. I'm considering going the 2h katana method to avoid taking extra feats.

The stat build for the character is going to be 18/14/12/12/7/14. It's a 20 pt buy and he's human. I'll have 3 ki to use per day, so Forgotten Trick is kind of out of the question. I'll also only be able to use Vanishing Trick 3x per day until I can afford and locate one of the magical items that stores Ki for me.

If you can think of a better stat buy I'm all ears. The character needs to be party face and skill monkey. I'm not too terribly worried about combat as the other party members are a melee paladin, an offensive caster, and a cleric that will be our healer and can mix it up in melee a little bit.

[Bigdaddyjug]

Oh and where do I go with feats for this build down the road? With a dual-wielder it's obvious to take a lot of feats in the TWF tree, but with this one I'm uncertain.

I'm thinking maybe Power Attack and Vital Strike and some of the feats in that chain. Also, what are some decent defenseive feats I can take to offset the fact that I'm only going to have a 16 AC early on?

[Weables]

one of the nice things about 2hing a katana is you can actually get some of the neat martial arts styles as well. some that require 1h free are fine because switching from 2h to 1h is a free action, so you can use things like crane style for defense

[kaisc006]

Great stat array... except for the wisdom! 7 wisdom is going to kill you later in your career when casters and BBEG's have a plethora of save or die/get knocked out of the fight spells. You should stick with something a little more conservative like 18/14/12/8/12/13. Because you're human and ninja you can afford the dump on intelligence.

I'd also suggest a one level dip into fighter. This will give you heavy armor proficiency so you can pop on an O-Yoroi and really go to town with your katana. The ACP won't hurt you due to vanishing trick's +20 stealth. Make vanishing trick your first ninja trick and use it to go behind enemy lines to target casters/archers. Your ki should only be spent on vanishing trick and extra attacks.

Here's a suggested build for feats:

build:

1st: Ninja: Dodge, Toughness
2nd: Fighter: Power Attack
3rd: Ninja: Trick (Vanishing Trick), Extra Ki
4th: Ninja
5th: Ninja Trick (Weapon Training (Katana))/Pressure Points/Fast Stealth), Furious Focus
6th: Ninja
7th: Ninja Trick (Weapon Training (Katana))/Pressure Points/Fast Stealth), Extra Ki
8th:
9th: Ninja Trick (Weapon Training (Katana)/Pressure Points/Fast Stealth), Iron Will
10th: Ninja
11th: Ninja Master Trick (Invisible Blade), Skill Emphasis (Stealth)
12th Ninja
13th: Ninja Master Trick(See the Unseen), Anything you want

Gear: make sure to get your katana keen asap.

[Bigdaddyjug]

I was considering a 16/14/12/13/10/14 stat array to help with AC at early levels and give me 13+ in Dex and Int to qualify for feats.

I can't afford to dump Int because I need to be party skill monkey and I need the +2 bonus to Cha to be party face. Yes I am the ninja of all trades.

I really don't want to multiclass at all, but I won't rule it put completely.

I'll have to see what skills my companions have and if I don't absolutely need 10 skill ranks per level I'll use your stat array.