Weapon plus only Natural Attack.

[Dalias]

There seems to be an issue with using a weapon and the only natural attack. I found this problem when looking up a ratfolk tailblade, but that has other issues as well. Instead, I'll use:

Human Witch 1; STR 14, INT 18, Prehensile Hair Hex, Dagger
By RAI: Dagger +2 (1d4+2), Hair -1 (1d3+2)
By RAW: Dagger +2 (1d4+2), Hair +4 (1d3+6)

I assume everyone agrees on RAI. Here are the relevant rules for my RAW judgment:
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Prehensile Hair (UM 81): The witch can use her hair...as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score. Her hair has reach 10 feet, and she can use it as a secondary natural attack that deals 1d3 points of damage... [Ok, hair is a secondary natural attack, and uses INT instead of STR.]

Natural Attacks (B 302): Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. [As a secondary attack, it hits with -1 (+0 BAB -5 secondary +4 INT) and does +2 (+4 INT x0.5 secondary) damage.]

If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. [This is the only natural attack, so ignore the previous section; it's really +4 ((+0 BAB +4 INT) to hit and +6 (+4 INT x1.5) damage. The attack is still secondary.]

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action.... Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type. [That's what we're doing, so the attack is secondary. This doesn't change anything--the attack was already secondary. The previous clause didn't make the attack primary, it just removed the penalty for a secondary attack and increased the damage.]

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The basic problem is that attacking with weapons and natural attacks doesn't override the only natural attack rule. They use different terms, and those terms don't interact. One possible fix:

"If a creature has only one natural attack, it is treated as a primary attack that adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls."

"Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action.... Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type. This overrides any rule that treats the attack as a primary attack (e.g., the one natural attack rule)."

[blackbloodtroll]

The number of natural attacks is meaningless to their interaction with manufactured weapon attacks.

They become secondary, so they are at -5, and only add half strength to damage.

This is always how it is, no matter the number of natural attacks.

[Sniggevert]

Prehensile hair specific rules trump general natural weapon rules. Hair attack would be -1 (1d3+1/2INT) as a secondary attack.

[Dalias]

Nowhere in there did I suggest that the attack isn't secondary. The only natural attack is never made primary. (If there is only one natural attack mode, but multiple attacks, then it is made primary, but that doesn't apply here.)

If the witch's only attack were the hair, it would still be a secondary natural attack with:
Hair +4 (1d3+6)
I believe I saw a post from the designers confirming this (the attack and damage, not that it is secondary) specifically for the witch's hair attack.

[Rocky Williams 530]

I apologize, but I'm confused. What was the rules question here again?

[Dalias]

Think about it another way:

"If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls."

This rule specifically says that it applies when the creature has only one natural attack. The example Witch has only one natural attack. Why wouldn't this rule apply here (regardless of whether the Witch has a weapon or not)?

I contend that this rule SHOULDN'T apply if a weapon is involved. However, that's RAI, not RAW.

[Dalias]

I phrased the question as a description of what I think is wrong by RAW. As a question, it would be:

The rules (Bestiary 302) state that a creature with only one natural attack ALWAYS uses their full BAB and 1-1/2 times their STR bonus to damage when using that attack. Is this really true? The particular case that is a problem is when it is combined with a weapon attack.

I gave an example of a Witch with the Prehensile Hair hex. Ratfolk with a tailblade (and no spikes) have a similar issue.

Note: I've always played that all natural attacks are at BAB-5 and 1/2 damage when you combine them with weapon attacks, but that's RAI.

[Michael Sayre]

Dalias wrote:

Think about it another way:

"If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls."

This rule specifically says that it applies when the creature has only one natural attack. The example Witch has only one natural attack. Why wouldn't this rule apply here (regardless of whether the Witch has a weapon or not)?

I contend that this rule SHOULDN'T apply if a weapon is involved. However, that's RAI, not RAW.

Rules don't exist as single sentence sound bites. The full rule is:

"Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. The natural attacks by size table lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.

Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature's description.

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.

Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do. See the natural attacks by size table for typical damage values for natural attacks by creature size.

Format: bite +5 (1d6+1), 2 claws +5 (1d4+2), 4 tentacles +0 (1d4+1); Location: Melee and Ranged."

So first, they address how natural attacks work in general. Later, in the same block of text, they discuss how natural attacks work in conjunction with other attack forms.
So the part that says "Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type."
clarifies that the part that says "If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls" only applies within the context of a standard natural attack routine, not when the creature is also using manufactured weapons. Your attack gets to be a primary attack dealing STRx1.5 if it's the only one you have. That is overridden if you also use a manufactured weapon since the use of a manufactured relegates the natural attack to a secondary attack regardless of its original type.
That entire block of text, collectively, is the rule, not any single sentence of it. You can strip single sentence sound bites out of just about anything to make it say whatever you want.

[Raymond Lambert]

I think the problem is that you are looking at rules in the Core rule book and/or Bestiary. I believe this portion was written for creatures, as in monsters, not races meant to be PCs.

Also, this is not even a racial or creature ability, it is a class ability. Does that matter?

You are also looking at old(even if the current edition of PF) rules for answers using new(or at least less old by about 2 years) material. I doubt the designers had the foresight to imagine everything they would do in the future. Thus I do not expect the core rule book to always have the answer or that every question will have a perfect fit within it's boundaries.

I am willing to look at what anyone wants to point out but frankly, I have to wonder why it was listed as a secondary attack at all unless it was meant to always suffer a -5 penalty.

[Dalias]

Ssalarn: "That is overridden if you also use a manufactured weapon since the use of a manufactured relegates the natural attack to a secondary attack regardless of its original type."

I don't see how that changes anything.

If the Witch attacks with just her hair, it is a SECONDARY natural attack with +4 to hit and 1d3+6 damage.

If she adds her dagger, the clause Ssalarn bolded treats it as a secondary natural attack. But that's what it already is anyway.

[Dalias]

The problem occurs when anyone mixes their only natural attack with a weapon. Any creature with only one natural attack has this issue.

I'm sure I saw a thread where SKR confirmed that Prehensile hair is supposed to work this way (full BAB, 1-1/2 INT), but that was when it was used as the only attack. Before seeing that, I had also assumed that it was always at the -5 for secondary.

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I actually ran into this when I was answering questions about a ratfolk wielding a tailblade. I described how the funny rules seems to be describing a secondary natural attack (use full BAB unless you make other attacks). To make sure I got the answer right, I double-checked the rule. That's when I found out that "only one natural attack" DOESN'T make the attack primary. It tweaks how the attack works, and combining it with weapons won't actually undo those tweaks.

It should undo those tweaks, but it doesn't. Ssalarn suggested that the "combining" rule makes the "only one natural attack" rule invalid, but by a literal reading of those rules it doesn't--they both apply, but they change different things.

In arguing about this, I found a second, smaller issue: How much damage does a dragon's bite do if the dragon also makes melee attacks?

[Dalias]

The thread where Sean K. Reynolds confirmed that the Witch's Prehensile Hair gets upgrade to full BAB and 1-1/2 times INT damage is:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mhfx?Prehensile-Hair-skill-use

Of course, that is only secondary to this issue.

[Dalias]

I just read through some of the Prehensile Hair posts, and there are a lot of comments about how Prehensile Hair (with no other natural attacks) is primary.

Am I the only one that doesn't see "primary" in that sentence?

[Michael Sayre]

Dalias wrote:

Ssalarn: "That is overridden if you also use a manufactured weapon since the use of a manufactured relegates the natural attack to a secondary attack regardless of its original type."

I don't see how that changes anything.

Then one is forced to wonder if you are being deliberately obtuse. All natural attacks used in an attack sequence with a manufactured weapon are treated as secondary attacks, with appropriate penalties.

The sentence about having only a single natural attack and treating it as primary regardless only applies in the context of an attack routine that does not include manufactured weapons.
As stated previously:
Single sentence sound bites are not rules.
Not a rule:Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls.

Not a rule:The natural attacks by size table lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.

Rule: "Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. The natural attacks by size table lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.

Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature's description.

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.

Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do. See the natural attacks by size table for typical damage values for natural attacks by creature size.

Format: bite +5 (1d6+1), 2 claws +5 (1d4+2), 4 tentacles +0 (1d4+1); Location: Melee and Ranged."

So first, they address how natural attacks work in general. Later, in the same block of text, they discuss how natural attacks work in conjunction with other attack forms.
So the part that says "Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type."
clarifies that the part that says "If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls" only applies within the context of a standard natural attack routine, not when the creature is also using manufactured weapons. Your attack gets to be a primary attack dealing STRx1.5 if it's the only one you have. That is overridden if you also use a manufactured weapon since the use of a manufactured relegates the natural attack to a secondary attack regardless of its original type.
That entire block of text, collectively, is the rule, not any single sentence of it.