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The Multiattack entry for both Animal companions and Eidolons reads as follows:
"Multiattack: An eidolon/animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has 3 or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite 3 or more natural attacks (or it is reduced to less than 3 attacks), the eidolon/animal companion instead gains a second attack with one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty. If the eidolon later gains 3 or more natural attacks, it loses this additional attack and instead gains Multiattack. "
SKR posted an in the NPC Codex thread stating:
Multiattack changes the secondary attack penalty from –5 to –2. Very few animal companions actually use secondary weapons with primary weapons, so that –5 is almost never an issue, and therefore Multiattack is almost never needed.
For example, the level 12 small cat in the preview has bite/claw/claw... but those are all primary attacks, so all of them are at +0/+0/+0 (plus BAB and Strength and Weapon Focus), so Multiattack does absolutely nothing for the animal. Instead, it uses the "gain an iterative attack for one of those weapons" option, which is why its bite attack has a slash and a second attack bonus...
Sean's response seems fairly straightforward, but doesn't seem to match up to the wording of the actual ability. That's cool, these things happen, and it's awesome to have devs who come in and clarify things like this so we can strain RAI from the RAW.
My main question then would be:Would this same ruling apply to Eidolon's as well since the wording is identical?
And by "Natural attacks" is it referring to actual attacks I might make during a full attack sequence, or "natural attack forms like claws/bite/talons?
For example, If I gain an additional attack with my natural weapon (claws) would I have three claw attacks after gaining Multi-attack? 4?
There's another thread discussing how this works for Animal Companions but since it bears on the Eidolon as well I thought I might bring it up again here.
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The Multiattack entry for both Animal companions and Eidolons reads as follows:
"Multiattack: An eidolon/animal companion gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has 3 or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite 3 or more natural attacks (or it is reduced to less than 3 attacks), the eidolon/animal companion instead gains a second attack with one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty. If the eidolon later gains 3 or more natural attacks, it loses this additional attack and instead gains Multiattack. "SKR posted an in the NPC Codex thread stating:
Multiattack changes the secondary attack penalty from –5 to –2. Very few animal companions actually use secondary weapons with primary weapons, so that –5 is almost never an issue, and therefore Multiattack is almost never needed.
For example, the level 12 small cat in the preview has bite/claw/claw... but those are all primary attacks, so all of them are at +0/+0/+0 (plus BAB and Strength and Weapon Focus), so Multiattack does absolutely nothing for the animal. Instead, it uses the "gain an iterative attack for one of those weapons" option, which is why its bite attack has a slash and a second attack bonus...
Sean's response seems fairly straightforward, but doesn't seem to match up to the wording of the actual ability. That's cool, these things happen, and it's awesome to have devs who come in and clarify things like this so we can strain RAI from the RAW.
My main question then would be:
Would this same ruling apply to Eidolon's as well since the wording is identical?
And by "Natural attacks" is it referring to actual attacks I might make during a full attack sequence, or "natural attack forms like claws/bite/talons?
For example, If I gain an additional attack with my natural weapon (claws) would I have three claw attacks after gaining...
This is one of those super-strange ruling that I don't agree with upon first reading, but assuming he didn't make a mistake in posting it, let's decide what it means.
-Level 8 summoner (Mook 1) has an eidolon with the Serpentine base form and no attack evolutions. It has one bite attack (primary, +7) and one tail slap attack (secondary, +2). He levels to level 9. Multiattack makes his tail slap attack only take a -2 penalty, so BAB +5. Super straightforward.
-Level 8 summoner (Mook 2) has an eidolon with the Quadruped base form and the limbs and claws evolutions. It has one bite attack (primary, +7) and two claw attacks (primary, +7). He levels to level 9. Multiattack has no secondary attacks to affect, so according to SKR's post it would gain an extra attack with one of its primary attacks. Let's say it's the bite. Its attack routine becomes bite (+7/+2) claw-claw (+7 each). Alright, a little weird, but I'll roll with it.
-Let's say Mook 2 decided he wants his eidolon to sting and poison people. He spends 3 evolution points on sting and poison. Now his eidolon has a secondary attack. Does it lose the iterative attack on its bite? I suppose so. Its attack routine would now be bite (+7), claw-claw (+7 each), sting (+5). Since he had to spend evolution points to get this attack, I'm okay with it being at a higher base attack bonus than the iterative attack that the eidolon lost.
-Level 8 summoner (Mook 3) has an eidolon with the quadruped base form and he spent an extra point on bite, so it has only a single bite attack that deals damage with a 1.5x Strength modifier. He levels to level 9. Multiattack has no secondary attacks to affect, so the eidolon gains an extra attack with its bite. Its attack routine becomes bite (+7/+2) but with a bit more damage. I'm okay with this. If he ever takes a secondary attack evolution, he'll lose that iterative attack, along with the bonus damage from it.
Honestly, none of the scenarios threaten to break the game. It's a strange ruling, but it doesn't seem too powerful or even against intention. I'd say it's a solid call, and I'll support it.
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Level 8 summoner (Mook 1) has an eidolon with the Serpentine base form and no attack evolutions. It has one bite attack (primary, +7) and one tail slap attack (secondary, +2). He levels to level 9. Multiattack makes his tail slap attack only take a -2 penalty, so BAB +5. Super straightforward.
Except for the fact that according to any reading of the base rule he actually gets a second attack in this scenario, not a reduction of his Tail Slap's penalty....
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Summoners also have a limit on the number of natural attacks their eidolons can have so I imagine that this will still apply.
Particularly given Sean's ruling for animal companions.
If I have a 9th level Eidolon with two sets of Claw x2 attacks and a Bite attack, since Multi-attack does nothing for me, bo I get a second attack with my bite? How does that interact with my normal limit of 5 natural attacks?
Level 9 summoner with serpentine base form, only base attacks
bite/bite/tail slap
bites at full attack bonus, tail slap at -5
Instead Summoner decides to give the the serpentine form wings and wing buffet
bite/tail slap/wing buffetx2
one bite at full attack bonus, tail slap and wing buffet attacks at full attack bonus -2
Level 9 Summoner with the Biped base form, only has claws as an attack.
3 claw attacks all at full bonus
Level 9 Summoner with the Biped base form instead gives his edilion a bite attack.
2 claws, 1 bite attack, all at full bonus (which if this is all you are doing it's kind of stupid to add the bite)
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2 claws, 1 bite attack, all at full bonus (which if this is all you are doing it's kind of stupid to add the bite)
This doesn't match up with SKR's clarification above though. The cat Animal Companion in his example has the same attack routine (1 bite, 2 claws) and gains an extra bite instead of the Multiattack feat.
So, since the Eidolon uses the exact same wording, he should have Bite, Bite-5, and Claw, Claw for this attack routine.
An eidolon is not an animal companion and specific trumps general. An eidolon with three or more attacks gets multiattack. If it has less than three attacks multiattack is not granted and it gets 'an iterative' instead.
This is regardless of what type of attacks it has.
Typically maxing out your attacks will be a summoners best bet anyway. The only corner cases where you might not want to is a quadraped that focuses on bites, or a bibed focusing on slams. Even then you had better REALLY want to spend evolution points elsewhere. You would net a 'free' third attack but you would still be under your maximum number allowed.
Edit - Also I'm tired and I made a mistake:
2x claws would become
2x claws at full bonus, 1x claw at full bonus -5
so adding the bite would make 3 attacks all at full bonus.
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An eidolon is not an animal companion and specific trumps general. An eidolon with three or more attacks gets multiattack. If it has less than three attacks multiattack is not granted and it gets 'a full bonus iterative' instead.
This is regardless of what type of attacks it has.
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Look at Sean's post above. This isn't a specific trumps general issue. The exact same ability for an animal companion under the exact same circumstances, and worded the exact same way should, according to Sean, provide a cat with 2 claws and a bite an extra bite attack. So it should do the exact same thing for an Eidolon.
He doesn't really make it clear why this is though. Is this a RAI doesn't match up to RAW issue? Does the phrase "3 natural attacks" actually indicate "3 natural attack forms" like bite, claw, talon as opposed to bite, claw, claw, since the claws are the same natural attack form?
Hrmm, then I don't know, you may be right. I guess I've always seen it as a toggle for edilions, not that they need much help in becoming better.
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It's not necessarily a better or worse thing (I think your best bet is to stack up as many primary attacks as possible) but it would be great to get some clarification on whether RAW needs to be updated to reflect RAI, if this clarification was meant to be an update/fix to Multi-attack that was supposed to be specific to Animal Companions and only unintentionally carries over to eidolons, and how this potentially interacts with the Eidolon's cap on natural attacks per round.