A while back I sought some advice on later-level plans for my rather optimized knifemaster/scout. The character, RP-wise, is a favorite among my group and this was the second campaign I'd brought him out for.
When I decided against taking a Shadowdancer dip, my GM seemed disappointed. It would appear he wanted one in the group for some reason. Lucky for him I've grown bored of the rogue (although scout does change the class in good/interesting ways) and am looking to retire him.
Inspired by others on these boards, I was thinking about a paladin/shadowdancer. However, I've also been wanting to try out a half-orc thug/cornugon smash intimidate build.
IS this trying to do much?
Something like:
Lv.1 (Rogue 1): Power Attack, Sneak Attack
Lv.2 (Fighter 1): Combat Reflexes
Lv.3 (Fighter 2): Dodge/Mobility, Combat Expertise
Lv.4 (Paladin 1): Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil
Lv.5 (Paladin 2): Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Spring Attack
Lv.6 (Shadowdancer 1): Hide in Plain Sight
Lv.7 (Shadowdancer 2): Darkvision, Uncanny Dodge, Cornugon Smash
Lv.8 (Shadowdancer 3): Summon Shadow, Intimidating Prowess
Later levels could be used to pick up rogue talents to put that paltry 1d6 to use, or to conitnue advancing paladin levels.
We'd be starting at 5 or 6.
other than my sense of righteousness wincing at a skulking paladin, depending on god/goddess shouldnt be an issue...
How 3 feats at level 3?... and how a feat at 5th? ...
You always get a feat at 5th. But yeah, you're one feat over at 3rd - you should have your normal 3rd level feat and your 2nd-level Fighter feat, so you're missing one.
If you're Human you can move one of those feats back to 1st, or shove all the feats before it back a step, but if you're not then you're a little off.
You always get a feat at 5th. But yeah, you're one feat over at 3rd - you should have your normal 3rd level feat and your 2nd-level Fighter feat, so you're missing one.
If you're Human you can move one of those feats back to 1st, or shove all the feats before it back a step, but if you're not then you're a little off.
Lore Warden. Not that I need it for the build. Just the most bang for my buck.
huh... thought stayed the same every 3... wow... might have to rework somethings now...
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other than my sense of righteousness wincing at a skulking paladin, depending on god/goddess shouldnt be an issue...
How 3 feats at level 3?... and how a feat at 5th? ...
Dude. Skulking paladin = Batmam.
huh... thought stayed the same every 3... wow... might have to rework somethings now...
Nope, PF gives a feat at every odd level now, instead of every 3 levels after 3rd.
Dude. Skulking paladin = Batmam.other than my sense of righteousness wincing at a skulking paladin, depending on god/goddess shouldnt be an issue...
How 3 feats at level 3?... and how a feat at 5th? ...
Batman isnt LG...
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Oh let's not start that argument, for the love of all that's holy please let's not start that argument.
Oh let's not start that argument, for the love of all that's holy please let's not start that argument.
Haha, OK, yeah. Agreed. I've seen that one happen and it goes on forever!
What about doing it as a Ninja instead?
Lv.1 (N1): Power Attack, Sneak Attack
Lv.2 (N2): Ki Pool, Vanishing Trick
Lv.3 (F1): Dodge/Mobility
Lv.4 (P1): Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil
Lv.5 (P2): Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Combat Reflexes
Lv.6 (SD1): Hide in Plain Sight
Lv.7 (SD2): Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Cornugon Smash
Lv.8 (P3): Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Mercy
Lv.9 (P4): Channel Wrath, Furious Focus
Lv.10 (SD3): Summon Shadow, Slow Reactions
Lv.11 (SD4): Shadow Call, Shadow Jump 40 ft., Intimidating Prowess
Vanishing trick is a little redundant I suppose, but rather flavorful and thematically appropriate. I suppose I could replace it with Slow Reactions, pick up Intimidating Prowess with the level 3 Shadowdancer Rogue Talent and save myself a feat. Probably for Extra Lay on Hands.
It's missing Thug since Ninjas can't take that archetype, but there's nice Charisma synergy. Also missing Spring Attack but I don't count that a huge loss.
Probably pick up Dreadful Carnage at some point as well.
Opinions? What about the level progression? Should I get to Summon Shadow faster? I've tried to strike a balance since I'm going with Oath of Vengeance and want Channel Wrath to overcome my delayed Smite Evil progression. Should that take priority?
Something like ...
Lv.1 (N1): Power Attack, Sneak Attack
Lv.2 (N2): Ki Pool, Slow Reactions
Lv.3 (F1): Dodge/Mobility
Lv.4 (P1): Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil
Lv.5 (P2): Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Combat Reflexes
Lv.6 (SD1): Hide in Plain Sight
Lv.7 (P3): Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Mercy, Cornugon Smash
Lv.8 (P4): Channel Wrath
Lv.9 (SD2): Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Furious Focus
Lv.10 (SD3): Summon Shadow, Intimidating Prowess
Lv.11 (SD4): Shadow Call, Shadow Jump 40 ft., Extra Lay on Hands
I should point out that I'm planning on Half-Orc, even though going human would eliminate the need for that oddball fighter level.
I would really reconsider going human... If not, then go ninja 2/ paladin 4/ shadow dancer... This way you can pick up oath of vengeance for some extra smiting. Maybe even ninja 3 for that extra sneak attack dice. You would enter SD at lvl 8, but you will pick up some truly sweet combat potential and synergy.
I liked this combo every time I've seen it. People are a bit too constrained into thinking of the paladin as the party cop. With shadow dancer, you are suddenly the party SWAT team member.
It is a reasonable transition really. Paladins and police officers both have a strict code of conduct that leads them to protect the public good. You do not need to be a white knight in combat. Save the chivalry for the people you are not trying to stab in the face. Just protect the peace and the innocent without doing too much collateral damage or being overly cruel. Sounds like the job description for a SWAT team. Nothing in the paladin code specifically discourages stealth and sneak attacks. Just give the ultimatum for surrender whenever possible and I can see you being LG.
Mechanically, it can be hard to decide whether shadowdancer or ninja would be better here. It is particularly problematic since you are going with a class focusing on CHA. Eldritch heritage (shadow) is an actual option. But the shadow is a powerful ally both in combat and as reconnaissance (assuming you think of it as your own shadow rather than undead in need of a smiting). I think I support the option that gives summon shadow earlier since you can so easily use it for good. Also, you want to get a handle on it before you get to levels where you GM can just throw force damage spells around all day. And really, with shadowdancer's front loading, it is just somewhat of a dip to acquire the ability.
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Batman isnt LG...Dude. Skulking paladin = Batmam.other than my sense of righteousness wincing at a skulking paladin, depending on god/goddess shouldnt be an issue...
How 3 feats at level 3?... and how a feat at 5th? ...
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"You're a Paladin... you can't kill me, you have to bring me in to justice"
The shadow dancers shadow ally materializes from the darkness behind the pally.
"You're right, I'm a Paladin, but he's not....I'll be out with the horse"
Paladin walks away....
Roll intimidate check...
I can dig it.
I had actually thought about doing Ninja AND Shadowdancer. I suppose Vanishing Trick is redundant then, but the extra attacks would be nice ... and the skills. Remember, I'm not starting a fresh game -- I'm building something to replace my rogue, starting at level 5.
Byrdology, you've convinced me on going human, since I'll pick up darkvision anyway and the extra feat is really, really necessary with this build -- I'd already given it thought, but you gave me that extra nudge.
Lemeres, I've never played a shadowdancer before, despite a certain fondness for sneaky types, but on paper the shadow certainly does look powerful.
I'm almost convinced to roll Rogue1/Paladin4 into shadowdancer. It would certainly simply things, and I could take Thug for more intimidate goodness. But I do so like the Charisma synergy with Ninja/Paladin/SD.
So many builds, so little time to test them/play them! :/
Thanks for all the suggestions. Any more insight?
"You're a Paladin... you can't kill me, you have to bring me in to justice"
The shadow dancers shadow ally materializes from the darkness behind the pally.
"You're right, I'm a Paladin, but he's not....I'll be out with the horse"
Paladin walks away....
Roll intimidate check...
I can dig it.
That and the fact that strength damage makes suspects a lot more compliant. Obviously you would have to be careful though, since it can still kill with that. Especially with squishy caster types.
Hmmm... well, how about weapons? Any preferences on that? I'd go for a nice two hander since you would not have very many feats to spare. A reach weapon might be nice with combat reflexes as a prerequisite. It would allow you the chance to do some battlefield control and of course make it easier to attack from the shadows.
I'm pretty sure the shadow doesn't get your cha to saves, since it only copies your bab and base saves, and with half your (admittedly respectable) HP, you should be rather precise on when/how you use it--you don't want it to get killed.
The robin to your batman, so to speak.
Just worth noting.
Yep, only base saves. However, even without the Charisma bonus, the saves on this build are pretty good.
For weapons, I had originally planned on falchion, since I had planned to go with half-orc. While I've decided on human instead I think I might stick with it -- although reach weapon has it's appeal, largely because of Combat Reflexes, as mentioned.
Early on it wouldn't hurt to just have both -- although at later levels when you need enchants to bypass DR -- not to mention just to keep up -- that becomes an issue. I'll think on it.
Great advice, thanks folks!
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I would really reconsider going human... If not, then go ninja 2/ paladin 4/ shadow dancer... This way you can pick up oath of vengeance for some extra smiting. Maybe even ninja 3 for that extra sneak attack dice. You would enter SD at lvl 8, but you will pick up some truly sweet combat potential and synergy.
Human is nice for the extra feat but I'd recommend giving Tengu a look instead. Swap out Sword trained & Gifted Linguist for Claws & Glide and take pressure point for your Ninja trick at 2nd.
This would free you up from needing to take Power attack (ever) since at 2nd level you'd be getting 4 attacks a round at full bab each draining away your opponents Str or Dex and inflicting ridiculous amounts of damage and SA opportunities.
Something kinda like this
Lv.1 (N1): Dodge, Sneak Attack
Lv.2 (N2): Ki Pool, Pressure Points
Lv.3 (P1): Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Mobility
Lv.4 (P2): Divine Grace, Lay on Hands
Lv.5 (P3): Combat Reflexes, Aura of courage, divine health, mercy
Lv.6 (SD1): Hide in Plain Sight
Lv.7 (SD2): Evasion, Darkvision, Uncanny Dodge, Enforcer (AoMF=Merciful)
Lv.8 (SD3): Forgotten Trick, shadow illusion, summon shadow
Lv.9 (P4): Channel positive energy, smite evil 2/day, Oath of Vengeance, Tengu Wings
Lv.10 (SD4): Shadow Call, Shadow Jump 40 ft.
Lv.11 (N3): No trace +1, sneak attack +2d6 Extra Lay on Hands
LV. 12 (N4): Shadow Clone, Improved Uncanny Dodge
This build will maximize your sneak attack and Smite Evil abilities as well as keep your targets shaken and gives you a always ready flanking buddy.
Good call on the power attack, don't know how I'd overlooked that.
Mathwei, I like, but Tengu gets too far from my idea for the character. That being said, the progression there is excellent. Just what I needed. Thanks!
P.S. That is a killer build, by the way. My DM would never let me get away with it though, most of the other players in the group don't optimize much. Really just me and one other guy, with whom I have a sort of friendly rivalry. ;)
All right, here's what I've come up, based on everyone's recommendations.
Traits are Armor Expert and Indomitable Faith, unless anybody has a better idea.
Race is human, per earlier recommendations and I'll be using a nice two-hander for damage -- probably a falchion or greatsword.
Lv.1 (N1): Dodge, Mobility, Sneak Attack
Lv.2 (N2): Ki Pool, Slow Reactions
Lv.3 (P1): Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Power Attack
Lv.4 (P2): Divine Grace, Lay on Hands
Lv.5 (P3): Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Mercy, Combat Reflexes
Lv.6 (SD1): Hide in Plain Sight
Lv.7 (SD2): Darkvision, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Cornugon Smash
Lv.8 (P4): Channel Wrath, Smite Evil/2 Day
Lv.9 (P5): Divine Bond, Extra Lay on Hands
Lv.10(SD3): Summon Shadow, Intimidating Prowess
Lv.11(P6): Mercy, Extra Lay on Hands
Lv.12(SD4): Shadow Call, Shadow Jump 40 ft.
Lv.13(P7): Smite Evil/3 Day, Unsanctioned Knowledge
Lv.14(P8): Aura of Resolve
Lv.15(P9): Mercy, Extra Lay on Hands
Slow reactions gives me something useful to do with that 1d6 sneak attack. Pressure points would be amazing for a TWF/Natural Attack build but I think I'll get more mileage from this due to party composition factors.
With level progression, I've tried to strike a balance between getting the shadowdancer goodies fairly quick, while not letting my paladin goodies fall too far behind.
Intimidating prowess may not be necessary -- I'll have to see how my Intimidate checks are going at that point. Should easily have +18 or so by that point, at the least, so ... Could be bumped slightly by going Half-Orc like I'd planned. Slow reactions could be replaced by combat trick to make up the feat. It's missing a couple things I had originally planned on, like Spring Attack, but no build does everything.
But other than that, barring some glaringly stupid mistake I'm not seeing (like the Power Attack goof above), I think I'm happy with it.
I plan on grabbing an adventurer's sash, plenty of pouches and tossing thunderstones and smoke pellets, fun tricks like that. Should be a blast to play and is still pretty close to my original concept.
Thanks for all the help and advice.