Can a Bow, for example, with the Guided property use the Deadly Aim Feat?
|
The Guided property shouldn't work with ranged weapons period. " A character who attacks with a guided weapon modifies his attack rolls and weapon damage rolls with his Wisdom modifier, not his Strength modifier."
Guided is a melee weapon property.
Can a Bow, for example, with the Guided property use the Deadly Aim Feat?
Isn't Guided a melee only enchantment? It says specifically that it can be used as a normal weapon (using STR) but at a -2 to hit. Ranged weapons don't use STR to hit.
It's Non-Core so I guess it could be used for ranged weapons if the GM allows it. But there isn't anything in its description that would lead me to believe that it wouldn't work with Deadly Aim if it was usable on Ranged Weapons. What makes you think you couldn't?
Ssalarn, I'm pretty sure I've seen a whole lot of ranged weapons with the guided property discussed on these boards.
Your bolded portion of the rule appears to assume that since it is referencing replacing str, it MUST be a melee weapon. It is not explicitly stated, and since a compound str-adjusted bow actually does contribute strength to damage, you can't say that ranged weapons don't contribute str so the property won't work.
Is there a FAQ or developer ruling on this that specificially excludes bows? If not I think it is within the GM's interpretation to rule that it works with bows at least. Or with thrown weapons, which also use str to modify damage. Or slings... :-)
Deadly Aim should work just fine with Guided.
A weapon with Guided uses wisdom instead of strength for damage, though unless it is a compound bow it won't gain any extra damage (a normal bow does not gain strength bonus damage). It is a simple swap of stats.
Deadly Aim gives you a bonus to damage (from the feat) for a penalty to hit.
There is no overlap and the two pieces won't cause each other any trouble.
For what it is worth, my GM has ruled that Guided simply gives you wisdom for both attack and damage bonuses. He feels that is balanced with the same benefit being accrued to a melee weapon and doesn't see a reason to punish ranged weapon users compared to melee. So my druid's guided bow uses wisdom for both attack and damage.
I've seen the same done for Zen archers.
Yeah, I was thinking about a Ranger using Wis for pretty much everything.
Wis bonus for hitting, plus to damage and spells.
I was assuming that you could add Wis bonus to the damage as the property states..
"A character who attacks with a guided weapon modifies his attack rolls and weapon damage rolls with his Wisdom modifier"
You're using you wise-ness to power the weapon instead of Strength or Dexterity.
EDIT: The construction requirement of spiritual weapon isn't exclusive to melee weapons.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would tentatively agree with Ssalarn that based on the text of the ability, it's melee only. While the actual page does not specify one way or the other (and it doesn't have the table that determines if it's melee or ranged or both), in the adventure it's used on a spiked chain and apparently nothing else. Which doesn't really help all that much.
I doubt they'll give an official answer to the question of guided on ranged weapons, as it was a 3.5 ability that was not carried over to Pathfinder in Ultimate Equipment or anywhere else.
I would agree that as written it is reasonable to conclude that "Guided" is intended for melee weapons.
However, neither I nor my GM see any game balance reason to restrict it that way. So since it is not explicitly stated as being melee only, it's allowed on ranged.
|
|
Here's the full text of the ability from the actual adventure it was introduced in:
"A weapon with the guided property allows its wielder to use
his instinct when striking blows with it. Attacks from a guided
weapon generally don’t strike hard, but they strike at precisely
the right moment to maximize damage if in the hands of
a particularly wise wielder. A character who attacks with a
guided weapon modifies his attack rolls and weapon damage
rolls with his Wisdom modifier, not his Strength modifier.
This modifier to damage is not adjusted for two-handed
weapons or off-hand weapons—it always remains equal to
the wielder’s Wisdom modifier. A guided weapon may be
wielded as a normal weapon, using Strength to
modify attack and damage rolls, but this goes
against the weapon’s nature and
imparts a –2 penalty on all attack
rolls made in this manner."
There won't be a FAQ or Eratta, as this ability is from a 3.5 era adventure, and not a Pathfinder era core product, but it is pretty clearly intended for melee weapons based on the text. As Cheapy mentioned, the only example of a Guided Weapon in official print anywhere is also on a melee weapon. You could potentially use it on a Composite bow, but it would only impact the damage as the property replaces STR with WIS. It wouldn't do anything to help your to-hit.
There won't be a FAQ or Eratta, as this ability is from a 3.5 era adventure, and not a Pathfinder era core product, but it is pretty clearly intended for melee weapons based on the text. As Cheapy mentioned, the only example of a Guided Weapon in official print anywhere is also on a melee weapon. You could potentially use it on a Composite bow, but it would only impact the damage as the property replaces STR with WIS. It wouldn't do anything to help your to-hit.
Well, I guess then if you're going by pure Pathfinder rules then, it shouldn't be allowed at all.
As with most things I think it's a GM call. If you allow it in the game, I think it's fine to rule that it can work for ranged weapons too.
I suppose someone could cheese up using it, but having it on my druid's bow just allows her to maintain some level of competence as a ranged combatant, which as I said, my GM was fine with.
As a note, not being mentioned in the text of the ability is not sufficient to mean it works with both types of weapons. Examples of this include the Defending and Dancing weapon abilities both of which were melee only but did not specify in the description. They only recently had "This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons." added to them when they were included in Ultimate Equipment, but this doesn't change any rules.
If you're GM is fine with such a powerful enhancement working on more weapons than implied by the ability, I guess that's that. But at that point we're running into the all-to-often-complaint about putting houserules in the Rules Questions forum.
True cheapy, but then we're back to this probably doesn't belong in the rules forum at all since Guided is not actually a Pathfinder enhancement.
Composite bows are modified by strength so I would say it's fine for them, but you would have to gain permission from your DM as it is 3.5 material.
As far as maxing out Wis goes, it's not too different to a Barby maxing out Str. Both will still nedd Con and others stats if they want to do something other than be a one dimensional character.
True cheapy, but then we're back to this probably doesn't belong in the rules forum at all since Guided is not actually a Pathfinder enhancement.
It came from a Pathfinder adventure path edition, that's got to be worth something?? Maybe I'm squeezing a little too hard...
True cheapy, but then we're back to this probably doesn't belong in the rules forum at all since Guided is not actually a Pathfinder enhancement.It came from a Pathfinder adventure path edition, that's got to be worth something?? Maybe I'm squeezing a little too hard...
You're fine Stuart. I have an unfortunate history of stating an opinion here and there on the rules forum. It's a bad habit.
Well, the guy who is wanting to use Wisdom to hit and damage probably has many other good abilities that are keyed off of Wisdom such as spells per day, spell DCs, ability DCs, ability uses per day, AC, etc and they want to have a strong ability to use these various features as well as have a strong martial capacity whereas normally you'd need to focus on one or the other.
That's a pretty big difference since the only thing other than to-hit and damage Barby gets is a higher carrying capacity.
cheapy, that's true, but at the same time that wisdom based character with all those other abilities keyed off of wisdom isn't likely to be a huge damage contributor with a weapon, wisdom based or not.
|
|
cheapy, that's true, but at the same time that wisdom based character with all those other abilities keyed off of wisdom isn't likely to be a huge damage contributor with a weapon, wisdom based or not.
The Zen Archer who gets this abiity baked in to the class would beg to differ....
Similarly, a Ranger who gets big boosts to relevant skills (see Perception and Survival), gets his one weak save shored up, and is now using the same stat for attack and damage as he uses for his Ranger spells, has gotten substantially more out of the ability than Joe the barbarian. The net gain for ranged classes in general is a step up over that for melee characters. Instead of having to divert ability points into STR to help bolster their damage, they instead get to focus on a stat that that helps boost saves, and various other class abilities as well.
Ssalarn, the ranger melee fighter would get that in the way you've interpreted "guided" already, so you would penalize the ranged ranger instead?
Zen archer is worth looking at. I've never played a zen archer, but I think they get a class ability or feat that lets them do this already, don't they?
|
|
Ssalarn, the ranger melee fighter would get that in the way you've interpreted "guided" already, so you would penalize the ranged ranger instead?
The melee fighter would have had to take STR already for some of his feats. He's also probably wearing heavier gear since he's in melee. The Guided property doesn't completely obviate his need for STR the way it does for a ranged character. It's good for both, but the gains for ranged are greater than those for melee since melee still needs carrying capacity, higher CMD since they're in direct combat, STR based feats like Power Attack, etc.
|
|
Zen archer is worth looking at. I've never played a zen archer, but I think they get a class ability or feat that lets them do this already, don't they?
Yeah, Zen archer has built in Guided with their bows. It's why the class is considered so good, you can basically create a SAD martial character who uses WIS for everything : ki pool, AC, saves, attack rolls, DC's of special abilities, etc. PLus, you know, Flurry with a bow which ultimately helps them net like 2 more attacks than a standard archer when combined with their ki ability to make an extra attack.
It's pretty solid.
Ssalarn, you're probably right in general, but I'm sure I could cheese up a melee build with no str bonus and use guided in its place. But you can cheese up just about anything if you really want to.
I guess my take on this is that for a cleric or druid archer compared to a cleric or druid melee weapon user, the archer may benefit more, but they're still not going to touch the barbarian or fighter in combat, and they're still going to primarily be casting spells for their main impact, so I just don't see it as a big deal, more just keeping them relevant in combat for a while.
|
|
Ssalarn, you're probably right in general, but I'm sure I could cheese up a melee build with no str bonus and use guided in its place. But you can cheese up just about anything if you really want to.
I guess my take on this is that for a cleric or druid archer compared to a cleric or druid melee weapon user, the archer may benefit more, but they're still not going to touch the barbarian or fighter in combat, and they're still going to primarily be casting spells for their main impact, so I just don't see it as a big deal, more just keeping them relevant in combat for a while.
Yeah, it's more the 1/2 and 1/4 casters who are going to squeeze the most out of this property. Ranged Rangers and Inquisitors in particular would get a huge boost out of a Guided ranged weapon, much moreso than most classes would get out of a melee Guided weapon.
|
|
Just to toss this clarification from James Jacobs a la Cheapy:
And JJ's name is the one under the Editor-in-Chief slot for the book the property appears in so.... Should count for a little.
As we've already discussed though, given the age of the book in question and the fact that that supplement was designed for the 3.5 system not the current Pathfinder one, it's probably best left to GM discretion as to whether you even use the feat in the first place, and how you adjudicate it from there.
As a DM I would go halfway. Guided on a bow gives you wisdom for damage, but still uses dex to hit. As someone who has played several dedicated cleric archers over the years, guided replacing str and dex would be so overpowered in the right cleric build.
|
|
As a DM I would go halfway. Guided on a bow gives you wisdom for damage, but still uses dex to hit. As someone who has played several dedicated cleric archers over the years, guided replacing str and dex would be so overpowered in the right cleric build.
It costs you two feats to get WIS to hit now. Channel Smite and Guided Hand let you use WIS to hit with your deities favored weapon. For ranged characters Channel Smite is pretty much just a feat tax to get to Guided Hand since it only works with melee attacks.
As a DM I would go halfway. Guided on a bow gives you wisdom for damage, but still uses dex to hit. As someone who has played several dedicated cleric archers over the years, guided replacing str and dex would be so overpowered in the right cleric build.It costs you two feats to get WIS to hit now. Channel Smite and Guided Hand let you use WIS to hit with your deities favored weapon. For ranged characters Channel Smite is pretty much just a feat tax to get to Guided Hand since it only works with melee attacks.
In my experience Cleric archers are very feat starved, so the cost of 2 feats means you don't get some of the other must have archer feats until later. Just getting weapon focus, point blank shot, rapid shot, manyshot, and precise shot eats up all your feats up to level 7, and that is assuming you are human. Also, at some point at or before level 11, you are going to want to look into getting extend spell. further, dumping dexterity to use wisdom to hit will leave you with a subpar AC.
The other trick with cleric archers is that you don't want a lot of raw enhancement bonuses on your bow. I would rather have a +1 Guided, Adaptive Longbow of Distance Seeking than a +4 Adaptive Longbow. With the +1 bow, I can cast greater magic weapon on it and make it a +2 to +5 longbow for an hour per level. Thus, it is a lot easier for a cleric to get the guided weapon property without sacrificing pluses to hit and damage.
In short, I would take +wisdom to damage for a +1 bonus on my bow long before I would burn 2 feats to get wisdom to hit. That would leave me with a cleric who is split between wisdom and dexterity, and I could make a very solid damage dealer out of that. Getting wisdom to hit and dam for a +1 bonus would be way too good for a cleric archer as it would allow me to focus solely on wisdom, so I would be an extremely strong archer without sacrificing any spellcasting ability.
Dex to hit and Wis for damage looks like a fair compromise.
Would you still be required to pay the extra 100gp's per point of Wisdom used this way if you were to adopt the above?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Dex to hit and Wis for damage looks like a fair compromise.
Would you still be required to pay the extra 100gp's per point of Wisdom used this way if you were to adopt the above?
You use WIS in place of STR. I'd say you probably still need to have a bow capable of providing you whatever bonus you're trying to get. So to get +4 from your WIS to damage with a composite Longbow, you'd still need a bow capable of giving you up to the +4 STR mod.
Assuming we're houseruling the ability to work with ranged weapons, of course.