Improving Saving Throws

[kyrt-ryder]

It would seem I have a bit of a dilemma. In the 10th level campaign in which I'm playing, several of our players have rather poor saves (the bard, for example, has +7 Fortitude, +11 Reflex, +7 Will before the Cloak of Resistance) and at this level that just isn't cutting it. If you assume a +2 Cloak of Resistance, that's +9 to the two important saves when the EASY opponents (CR = 10) are only 50% to save against average DC of 19, and it gets worse as the level goes up. (To frame this, in my opinion an easy save should succeed on 3 or so, an intermediate challenge on a 6 or 7, and a hard on maybe an 11 or 12. Failing saves is far too dangerous to have odds any worse than that.)

There comes a point where improving the Cloak of Resistance becomes prohibitively expensive relative to level, so I'm here asking for advice. I'm well aware of the Cracked Pale Green Prism ioun stone for another +1 at 4,000 gold, but it's a little pricy for a +1 (barely less expensive than going from a +2 to +3 cloak) and even if one were to take the option it's still only +1.

What else would you guys recommend? All books (including 3rd party material, be it 3rd party made for pathfinder, 3rd party in the form of 3.0/3.5 WotC material, or 3rd party publisher 3.x material.)

My one restriction is avoiding the custom item creation rules. Yes it would be easy to grab a ring of +1 Sacred/Profane or an amulet of +1 Morale to Saves for 2,000 gold, but that assumes the GM allows the use of those rules.

[AerynTahlro]

Feats are definitely a workable route...
Iron Will
Improved Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Improved Lightning Reflexes
Great Fortitude
Improved Great Fortitude

Additional Traits
(There are a bunch of traits that offer +1 bonuses to saves, or +2 to a particular type of effect from a save.)

If Human...
Defiant Luck
Heroic Will

There are a bunch of spells you can use too, s/a...
Heroism, Haste, Prayer, etc... You can also get around a lot of spells by having Spell Resistance.

Items you can use...
Belt of Incredible Dexterity, Belt of Mighty Constitution, Headband of Inspired Wisdom

[Petty Alchemy]

Those saves aren't horrible, you know. They're decent. And the cloak isn't that expensive.

An obvious path for a Bard would be going Paladin for Divine Grace, if saves are that important. This could bolster him in melee as well, or as an archer.

[kyrt-ryder]

Thanks for the feats Aeryn. At this point in the game feats aren't going to help much, but next level they might come in handy.

@Petty Alchemy:

Average Save DC by CR

CR 10 = 19
CR 11 = 20
CR 12 = 21
CR 13 = 21
CR 14 = 22

A level 10 party can expect to occasionally go up against CRs of up to 22.

Assuming a +2 Cloak (for 4,000 gold, about 6% of Wealth by Level) the aforementioned Bard would only have +9 on the two critical saves.

Adding a cracked Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone set to saves would increase that to +10 for another 4,000 (8,000 total, or about 12% of Wealth by Level)

Increasing the Cloak to +3 would cost another 5,000 gold, which would bring our grand total up to 13,000 gold spent on saves, 20% of wealth by level at level 10.

That's a lot of money to spend just to try to have to not get dominated/charmed/compelled/stunned/staggered/dazed/nauseated/paralyzed against equal CR. Somewhat worthwhile, but the results still aren't great, having (in the bard's case) only +11 to those critical saves at level 10.

EDIT: I do agree the Paladin dip isn't a terrible idea, but sacrificing caster levels (and more importantly, spellcasting levels) is a pretty big deal, as is giving up bardic music progression. Level 10's not a bad breaking point though (now that he's got 4th level spells and three Versatile Performances) so I will mention it.

If possible, items or LONG duration spells would be particularly appreciated.

[Petty Alchemy]

If it's supposed to be an epic encounter, having a 30% chance of success on your weakest save ain't bad. It's certainly not good, but you're the bard, not the monk.

Plus as a bard he can boost saves vs fear/charm, he's probably busting out Haste which also gives +1 reflex, and...wait for it...

The ever popular Good Hope for +2 morale to all saves (plus all the other stuff that it does for your party).

So with his +2 cloak of resist (crazy cheap at 4k) and Good Hope, he's looking at
+11/+15/+11 on saves.

That's pretty rad. Haste will bump Reflex up to +16.

The other thing is, how often are spells gonna be flung at him? He's the bard. Charms/Fear he has better chances against just with Inspire Courage, Suggestion he gets a big bonus against with Well-Versed.

Is someone going to Dominate the Bard and not the front-liner? I'll take it.

Fortitude saves are usually close range spells that cause conditions that hamper front-liners as well. Reflex saves are often for AoE which this guy will get nailed by, but it's his best save.

[kyrt-ryder]

Actually, last session he got Magic Jarred and we almost lost him entirely.

[Steel Forged Games]

Even a monk is not overly awesome. I mean assuming a level 10 monk with 16s in Dex, Con and Wis you get +10's across the board. Assuming a +2 cloak that is +12's. So even a 10 monk with good stats only has a 50/50 shot and avoiding everything.

And as Petty said if someone is going to pass on dominating the tank with the great sword in the front for the bard, um please. His biggest fear should be getting hit by some sort of AoE, so with Pettys augments you have a what 70% chance of avoiding those.

I think he is fine.

Another option if he is concerned about being dominated is grab a wayfinder and throw a clear spindle ioun stone in there. Total just just over 4k and you pretty much are immune to mind affecting things. Pretty much.

[Steel Forged Games]

magic jar is a pain, lol. At least it was not a bag of devouring. lol, our party cleric just found out what one of those is like.

[kyrt-ryder]

Huh, the Clear Spindle in the Wayfinder is pretty interesting. If the DM were to approve it with the Cracked version, that's only 1500 gold for immunity to possession and mind control. For once it's actually cheaper than a custom item by the guidelines (assuming the GM allowed a cracked one resonate of course xD)

Thanks SFG.

I hereby add Wayfinder Resonances to the bag of tricks, but I'm still looking for more tricks to load up on.

[Steel Forged Games]

I think rules wise they have to be complete ioun stones not cracked but don't quote me on that. I know I have to use one because I have a 6 Wisdom and I hit HARD. Had to buy it to protect my party as much as myself, lol.

edit: oh and your welcome.

[kyrt-ryder]

Resonant Powers: Only 25% of cracked or flawed ioun stones have resonant powers (see Wayfinders and Ioun Stones) compared to the 75% chance for typical ioun stones; only 10% of scorched ioun stones have resonant powers.

I'm 90% sure PFS restricts Resonant Powers to typical Ioun STones though.

[AerynTahlro]

How about the Cap of the Free Thinker?