Regarding Planar Lords, Deities, and Old Ones

[cakeisgood]

Iv been reading through the pathfinder wiki for some guidance on the issue, as well as general supplemental books but one question always remains.
How do the aforementioned beings compare, "power"-wise?
According to the wiki language, Asmodeus claims full divinity, which is elsewhere described as only obtained by beings such as Azathoth, an outer god. Old ones (Cthulu, Hastur), are described as more "demigod", close in power to an archdevil/archdemon.

I understand when it comes to this level, regular concepts and gameplay would be out the window, but its valid when it comes to a games flavor if it is large scale, or even if players seek divinity.

I'll try to make it easier to answer with a few unlikely, although possible scenarios which will more clearly define a structure:
1) Urgathoa, a deity, but according to lore a former mortal whom resides in abaddon, and a horseman, lets say Charon (Horseman of Death), ruling over said plane get into a tussle. Who has the edge? It wouldnt be the first time a deity went to war against the horsemen (Lamashtu).

2)Lamashtu, a former demon lord who achieved godhood, vs Asmodeus, still defined as an Archdevil (although like i said, claims full divinity).

3)Iomedae, a very popular deity, but achieved it through the starstone, and was only a herald for a while, seems to only imply strength. I really feel like she could be shut down fairly easily by an older deity.

The lines are grey, and grey in different places based on what plane.
An empyreal lord is a minor deity of the good realms, defined as a CR of 20+
Elemental lords are "not quite divine", but do not include a rough CR
Infernal Dukes are defined as not true deities but likely could hold their own
Demon Lords and Horsemen are both defined with a CR 30+

Lore would suggest in many cases a deity is not capable of easily overpowering and planar ruler, and on a political and social level, would be regarded as equals in some cases.

[Baroth]

Let me start with pointing out a few things about the Pathfinder RPG and Golarion.
Firstly, the Pathfinder RPG does not give any information about the exact power level of the planar lords and old ones, the powers of gods, how to attain divinity, and how these things interact.
Secondly, most of what is known about these things is only true for Golarion and can be found in the various setting books, i.e. BotDs, TGB, etc. It might be different in a different setting.
Thirdly, the gods of Golarion do not have stats and probably will never have stats. While there has been some discussion about that at the time when the mythic rules were announced, it is, as far as I know, still true that the people at Paizo do not intend to stat up gods.
Fourthly, Asmodeus is, according to Golarion-lore and to the bestiary as well, a god and not an archdevil.
Fifthly, the old ones are approximately on par with archdevils, demon lords, etc. as James mentioned that he will stat up a few of them when the mythic rules are released.

Therefore, as there are no stats and no indication about the power relation of the gods, it is not sensible to try to compare the powers of the gods with each other and with other beings and thus, your scenarios are not sensible as a god cannot be compared to other beings including other gods. However, as a general guideline, most outsider races have minor lords, i.e. harbingers, nascent demon lords, infernal dukes, etc., and 'major lords', i.e. horsemen, demon lords, archdevils, etc. The minor lords are intended to the be end game for a campaign going up to level 20. The major lords are mythic content and the gods are out of stat range.

If I were to guess I would say that while a god could kill another god or a major lord, it would not be easy. Furthermore, it is probably possible to kill a god, but one needs special conditions to do so. Thus, killing a planar ruler would deplete some of the resources of the god and leave him open to be killed by someone who is able to establish the special conditions needed to kill him. Therefore, you get some kind of stalemate where they do not dare to engage each other personally because the risks would simply be too high.

By the way, I guess that the Chronicle of the Righteous (PFRPG) will shed some light on the goodly lords.

[cakeisgood]

I have to say iv been looking forward to the spiritual opposite of the Book of the Damned series, comparatively the good aligned outer planes lore is few and far between.
My main purpose in trying to understand these relations is that iv played in several free-form campaigns which do not use Golarion, but still will use its general mythology. I'm becoming the go-to on things of the matter, albeit in groups that are younger (20-somethings), and many tend to have only a few years of RPG experience.

As a GM I wouldn't expect players to fight gods, but if i wanted a larger overarching storyline, e.g. the stereotypical "heaven vs hell" war, but I suppose when it comes to things not meant to be stated up, its GM discretion.

Not like my players would really know if I went against more obscure accepted ways of things, but I'd like to be as accurate as possible, or at least consistent.

[maouse]

I would explain it thusly: Any "non-god" like Chtulu (ps. I am not the one that is telling him he isn't a god!) would basically be something like this: Save vs. Insanity at sight. DC 80. Made that? Great. Assume all his stats are 80. FIGHT! Keeping in mind he has Fast Healing 80, SR 80, etc... it really matters not one whit what his stats are.

I tend to think that the Tarrasque is the BASE LINE for what it would take to kill a God and work from there. Got it? OK then.

[_Cobalt_]

maouse wrote:

I would explain it thusly: Any "non-god" like Chtulu (ps. I am not the one that is telling him he isn't a god!) would basically be something like this: Save vs. Insanity at sight. DC 80. Made that? Great. Assume all his stats are 80. FIGHT! Keeping in mind he has Fast Healing 80, SR 80, etc... it really matters not one whit what his stats are.

I tend to think that the Tarrasque is the BASE LINE for what it would take to kill a God and work from there. Got it? OK then.

Why 80? Let's make it 100. A nice square number.

[Kazred]

Like some of the other posters, I think it's a bad idea to stat divinities. Players who pick a fight with the gods are going to lose, simple as that. They're going to need to find some other way of dealing with these entities.

If you need to establish some kind of pecking order, my rule of thumb is: Old Ones > Full Gods > Young gods (e.g. Starstone Winners)> Demigods > Eldest/Elemental Lords etc > anything with a CR. The Old Ones need to be at the top of the food chain or they lose a lot of their flavor. There needs to be absolutely no hope of defeating these creatures -- it's only their remoteness and/or sleepiness that keeps them from destroying everything.