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Seems like my searches should have found this, so maybe I just chose poor search terms, but here goes:
(1) Evil necromancer casts Circle of Death, and rolls that it "affects 28 hit dice".
(2) PC 1 and PC 2 (8 HD each) fail their saves and die
(3) PC 3 (8 HD) makes his save.
Does a PC making his save count as being 'affected' by the spell, or does the spell move on to the next hapless PC because, by making his save, PC 3 wasn't 'affected'? (There's no effect if you make your save on this spell.)
And in any case, since there are only 4 HD left in the spell, it's not going to affect any other 8 HD PCs, right?
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If PC makes his save, he is not counted as "affected" by the spell. It will keep forcing saves from creatures in the area until either a) It has killed 28 HD worth of creatures or b) all remaining creatures in the area have either passed their save or have more HD than the spell has remaining.
If PC makes his save, he is not counted as "affected" by the spell. It will keep forcing saves from creatures in the area until either a) It has killed 28 HD worth of creatures or b) all remaining creatures in the area have either passed their save or have more HD than the spell has remaining.
I went and looked through the magic rules but couldn't find any confirmation on this. Do you have a reference to it in the rules somewhere?
I can't really remember where I first remember seeing that it worked that way. It could be something that I (wrongly) brought over from 3.x but here is how I view it. Circle of Death kills 1d4 HD of creatures per caster level within its area, not just targets. Once you check the number of HD you can kill, you determine which creatures need to make their saves first. Every time a creature fails it save and dies, deduct its HD from the spells pool. If a creature passes its save, then Circle of Death hasn't killed it even though it was targeted, so the HD aren't deducted. Then you just keep checking creatures until either there are no new valid targets or there are no HD left in Circle of Death's kill pool.
Basically it comes down to the fact that the spell says it kills X man HD worth of creatures, not targets X man HD of creatures.
I've always ruled it that creatures that make saves have been affected by the spell. They just resisted the effect.
They weren't killed though, so why would it deduct from the spell's "can kill X worth of HD" pool?
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I've always ruled it that creatures that make saves have been affected by the spell. They just resisted the effect.
In the saving throw area of the rules there is this:
Saving Throw
Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The saving throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work.
Negates: The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.
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Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
So, if they make their saving throw, the spell has no effect on them, thus they are not affected by the spell.
I've always ruled it that creatures that make saves have been affected by the spell. They just resisted the effect.In the saving throw area of the rules there is this:
So, if they make their saving throw, the spell has no effect on them, thus they are not affected by the spell.Saving Throw
Usually a harmful spell allows a target to make a saving throw to avoid some or all of the effect. The saving throw entry in a spell description defines which type of saving throw the spell allows and describes how saving throws against the spell work.
Negates: The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw.
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Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
We could go in circles arguing the semantics behind this for quite some time. I'd argue that if you are not affected by the spell, you'd never have to make the saving throw against it. And the saving throw is resisting the effects of the spell. It's kind of like single target spells. You aim it at someone, they make the save. Just because they made the save doesn't mean the spell was never cast, or that it gets to jump to the next person.
This is probably a good FAQ subject.
OK. I just flagged it as an FAQ.
I'm amazed it isn't already in the FAQ -- seems like something players and GMs would argue about every single session.
Both the GM and I feel that having to make a save counts as "being affected", because if you're not affected at all, why would you have to save? On the other hand, Dominigo makes an excellent point: The wording of the spell is specifically that it "slays xx HD" of living creatures, not that it "attempts to slay xx HD", so I think an FAQ is in order.
I've always ruled it that creatures that make saves have been affected by the spell. They just resisted the effect.
I'm only familiar with the Illusion(pattern) spells as far as HD affecting, and they seem to be written like:
"A glowing, rainbow-hued pattern of interweaving colors fascinates those within it. Rainbow pattern fascinates a maximum of 24 HD of creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first. Among creatures with equal HD, those who are closest to the spell's point of origin are affected first. An affected creature that fails its saves is fascinated by the pattern."
Note the difference between affected and fascinated.
It affects all the creatures in order of HD and proximity, but only those who fail their save are fascinated. 24 HD of creatures are fascinated.
It's not 24 HD affected, it's 24 HD fascinated.
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We could go in circles arguing the semantics behind this for quite some time. I'd argue that if you are not affected by the spell, you'd never have to make the saving throw against it. And the saving throw is resisting the effects of the spell. It's kind of like single target spells. You aim it at someone, they make the save. Just because they made the save doesn't mean the spell was never cast, or that it gets to jump to the next person.
This is probably a good FAQ subject.
Of that I can agree. :)
Just curious, do you force your casters to make a concentration check every-time they are on the receiving end of a spell while they are casting? (I know it does not happen often, just curious).
I ask due to this chunk of the rules:
Spell: If you are affected by a spell while attempting to cast a spell of your own, you must make a concentration check or lose the spell you are casting. If the spell affecting you deals damage, the DC is 10 + the damage taken + the level of the spell you're casting.
If the spell interferes with you or distracts you in some other way, the DC is the spell's saving throw DC + the level of the spell you're casting. For a spell with no saving throw, it's the DC that the spell's saving throw would have if a save were allowed (10 + spell level + caster's ability score).
By your interpretation, even if you succeed on the saving throw, you would still have to make a concentration check to not fail your own spell casting.
We could go in circles arguing the semantics behind this for quite some time. I'd argue that if you are not affected by the spell, you'd never have to make the saving throw against it. And the saving throw is resisting the effects of the spell. It's kind of like single target spells. You aim it at someone, they make the save. Just because they made the save doesn't mean the spell was never cast, or that it gets to jump to the next person.
This is probably a good FAQ subject.
Of that I can agree. :)
Just curious, do you force your casters to make a concentration check every-time they are on the receiving end of a spell while they are casting? (I know it does not happen often, just curious).
I ask due to this chunk of the rules:
By your interpretation, even if you succeed on the saving throw, you would still have to make a concentration check to not fail your own spell casting.Spell: If you are affected by a spell while attempting to cast a spell of your own, you must make a concentration check or lose the spell you are casting. If the spell affecting you deals damage, the DC is 10 + the damage taken + the level of the spell you're casting.
If the spell interferes with you or distracts you in some other way, the DC is the spell's saving throw DC + the level of the spell you're casting. For a spell with no saving throw, it's the DC that the spell's saving throw would have if a save were allowed (10 + spell level + caster's ability score).
Good catch. I don't. But for the sake of this discussion, it could be argued that making the save would remove the interference or distraction.
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*Bump*
I'm happy a lot of people have marked this as an FAQ candidate, but my GM and I are waiting to see if there's an 'official' decision somewhere. How do PFS GMs rule on this?
The 3.0 version of the spell had an example of how it works. Checking it again, it leads me to believe #1 is the correct. But a developer comment on this would be appreciated.
This related thread asked the same question about Sleep. It is believed that developer intent is that making a save counts as 'affected'. However, I don't think any official answer has been given.