weapon finesse applies only to maneuvers that you use with the weapon that is "finessable"...for instances if you are using a dagger, your BAB is +9 and Dex is +6, your CMB for disarm, trip, and sunder attempts is +15
Again this is ONLY when doing those maneuvers WITH that weapon, in the case above you also add in any feats or bonuses to your attack to your CMB since you are using the weapon...so weapon focus and such would give you the same bonuses
I've had this discussion at the table. Working from memory, the existence of Agile Maneuvers made me say no at first. We looked at the books, and it became a cloudy issue; although the existence of Agile Maneuvers seemed to imply that perhaps Weapon Finesse was intended for dealing damage and Agile Maneuvers was for performing combat maneuvers, I could find reasoning that allowed Weapon Finesse to benefit maneuvers, and I couldn't find anything forbidding it.
This page, http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/agile-maneuvers-combat , has the following FAQ posted (I will point out, when I try to navigate to the source, the page won't load correctly):
FAQ/Errata
If I have Weapon Finesse, can I apply my Dex bonus to my combat maneuver checks instead of my Strength bonus??
It depends on what combat maneuver you're attempting. Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses apply to the roll. Therefore, if you're attempting a disarm, sunder, or trip maneuver, you can apply your Dex bonus instead of your Str mod on the combat maneuver check (assuming you're using a finessable weapon, of course). For other combat maneuvers, you use the normal rule for determining CMB (Str instead of Dex).
The Agile Maneuvers feat applies to all combat maneuvers, not just disarm, sunder, and trip, so it is still a useful option for a Dex-based creature that uses combat maneuvers.
My problem with this reasoning is that natural attacks are finesse-able. Even if you have Weapon Finesse and usually use a finesse-able weapon such as a rapier, you still CAN perform Dex-based Bull Rushes, Drags, Grapples, Overruns, and Repositions because you can finesse your unarmed strikes. With this myth dispelled, we quickly realize that if somebody had higher Dexterity than Strength, then taking Agile Maneuvers instead of Weapon Finesse has little or no use. We have to start imagining corner cases where it would be useful.
For example, they are different in two ways.
1) Weapon Finesse applies with certain weapons, while Agile Maneuvers does not. You could use Agile Maneuvers to perform Dex-based combat maneuvers using weapons that could not be finessed, such as weapons sized for larger creatures than you, or greatswords, and so on.
2) If you are wielding a shield, Weapon Finesse applies the armor check penalty to your attack rolls. If you are using Weapon Finesse during combat maneuvers, a GM might rule to apply this penalty to your combat maneuvers; in this case, a character that wants to focus on Dexterity higher than Strength, use a shield with an armor check penalty, and participate in combat maneuvers may prefer Agile Maneuvers to Weapon Finesse.
Still, those cases look so rare to me that I have difficulty seeing Weapon Finesse not do everything Agile Maneuvers does and more.
Troubleshooter, here is the link Link
The GM does not need to rule that shields apply to Weapon Finesse based combat maneuvers. It is already in the rules. Any bonus or penalty that applies to a weapon used to make an attack also applies to the combat maneuver using that weapon. This is the basis for the FAQ ruling.
Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target’s Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
- Gauss
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Troubleshooter, here is the link Link
Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target’s Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.- Gauss
So my monk with Weapon Finesse could be using his DEX bonus instead of his STR bonus when computing his CMB using unarmed attacks?
Would that just be with disarm/trip/sunder?
What about the (unnamed) combat maneuver used in the Stand Still feat? Would that use STR or DEX? (I'd bet it would be closer to grapple than to trip, unfortunately)
Edit: Unfortunate typo - CMB (I had CMD)
John,
Weapon Finesse applies to attack rolls. CMD is not an attack roll.
Artanthos is correct, Dex already applies to CMD.
- Gauss
John, yes assuming you have Weapon Finesse and a finesse-able weapon you can trip with the Strength bonus replaced by the Dexterity bonus. This includes Unarmed Strike.
- Gauss
