Goblin Squad Member
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In another thread, the O.P. made the point that those who choose to play evil will be at a disadvantage because evil clerics may not be able to heal as well as good clerics. It got me thinking on a topic that I have not read anything about - healing as a skill.
If the O.P. of that other thread is correct, it seems that there will be a need for alternative forms of healing. Even if the evil cleric issue turns out not to be a problem, I have always liked multiple means of healing in MMOs. Certainly, there is always alchemy - got a boo-boo, drink a potion - but as someone who has played nonclerical healers in past games, I would love to see such a class in PFO.
A physician skill where you could staunch bleeding, cure damage, neutralize poison, and all the other usual talents would be a nice skill to invest training time into for those who want some of the healing benefits without seeming to holy/unholy by going the cleric route. Certainly, what a physician could do with herbs and bandages is never going to match the abilities of a cleric backed by his/her deity, but again, it could provide for a more utilitarian form of healing (i.e. an every-man's healing or healing for the laity).
I'm sure Pathfinder tabletop has something similar, but I'm wondering how well it would translate to an MMO. Thoughts?
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Goblin Squad Member
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My gaming group has a houserule for using the PnP PF Heal skill to heal 1d3 hp once per day (DC15) with each extra 5 points of success adding another d3. We find it extremely useful as we tend to play with a 3 character party and dont want to force someone to be a cleric or other dedicated healer. Its worked well for us so far. Would be nice to have a skill-based healing ability in PO rather than it purely being in the realm of magic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What about as a "patch job", halves the effect of a debuff, but doesn't remove it completly. Or brings back a character from the brink of death, but at minimum hit points and maybe with a serious debuff as well. First Aid, after all, isn't supposed to be a "cure for whatever ails you" but is just enough to keep you alive till the professionals (ie healing magic) can put you right.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why should recovering after a battle be fast and automatic? Just because that is the MMO and PnP default? (once a wand of cure light wounds becomes cheap)
Why shouldn't it be? In terms of an mmo its just a timesink. In terms of pnp Hit Points are not suppose to represent just your health. Its your overall chance of "not dieing". This is why you're just as effective at 1 HP as you are at 100 HP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why should recovering after a battle be fast and automatic? Just because that is the MMO and PnP default? (once a wand of cure light wounds becomes cheap)Why shouldn't it be? In terms of an mmo its just a timesink. In terms of pnp Hit Points are not suppose to represent just your health. Its your overall chance of "not dieing". This is why you're just as effective at 1 HP as you are at 100 HP.
Because it relegates things like regeneration, fast healing, wands of cure X wounds to being 'combat-only' abilities. Thats fine for a game whose primary focus is combat, but PFO is meant to encompass more than just combat.
An argument can be made on the basis of convenience, but HP management and sleep cycles have been a large part of D&D/PF and Im sure there are a lot of people (myself included) that would like to have that reflected in game to some extent. As annoying as the 'HP management' could get in PnP, it added a certain amount of planning and tension since you werent just trying to get out of this fight at positive HP, you were trying to make sure you didnt overextend yourself so you could face the upcoming challenges.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Why should recovering after a battle be fast and automatic? Just because that is the MMO and PnP default? (once a wand of cure light wounds becomes cheap)Why shouldn't it be? In terms of an mmo its just a timesink. In terms of pnp Hit Points are not suppose to represent just your health. Its your overall chance of "not dieing". This is why you're just as effective at 1 HP as you are at 100 HP.
In PvP it's way more than a timesink. It's a window of vulnerability. If the ability that you use to wipe out one group of defenders requires a noncombat refresh to regenerate, then an effective counter to that ability is to not mob the attacker with everyone.
In PvP it's way more than a timesink. It's a window of vulnerability. If the ability that you use to wipe out one group of defenders requires a noncombat refresh to regenerate, then an effective counter to that ability is to not mob the attacker with everyone.Why should recovering after a battle be fast and automatic? Just because that is the MMO and PnP default? (once a wand of cure light wounds becomes cheap)Why shouldn't it be? In terms of an mmo its just a timesink. In terms of pnp Hit Points are not suppose to represent just your health. Its your overall chance of "not dieing". This is why you're just as effective at 1 HP as you are at 100 HP.
If I'm understanding your post, Ryan's mentioning a fatigue mechanism added to PvP, requiring a unit rest for a period or fight at a reduced effectiveness would fit into what your talking about?
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is another thread where some of the posters are concerned about excessive downtime while waiting and working to heal. To me, that's part of the whole adventuring event...to not die, stay healed, reserve some of you resources for after the fight, preparing for the next one. Sure, if you power through all your healing abilities in the first fight you will not have anything left for round two, and what better time for a group of bandits to strike?
There should be a thorough and long term survival plan anytime a group leaves their settlement.
Wasn't it Bilbo that said "It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door."
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is another thread where some of the posters are concerned about excessive downtime while waiting and working to heal. To me, that's part of the whole adventuring event...to not die, stay healed, reserve some of you resources for after the fight, preparing for the next one. Sure, if you power through all your healing abilities in the first fight you will not have anything left for round two, and what better time for a group of bandits to strike?
There should be a thorough and long term survival plan anytime a group leaves their settlement.
Wasn't it Bilbo that said "It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door."
I cannot agree with you more, this is a weakness emphasized by the WoW generation, in which if you start a fight with less than 100% HP+Mana means you are trying to get your party killed rather than do with what you have. Admited this is an issue in tabletop gaming as well. Unless the DM constantly emphasizes and creates time pressures etc... parties tend to set up camp every chance they get, and the 5 minute workday becomes a huge problem.
I give DDO large props in this aspect, in that for it's style of game, it managed to more or less eliminate the "don't pull until our mana recharges" via the use of eliminating regen and having checkpoints instead.
and the refreshes per day system that GW has proposed also has a good chance of assisting in this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can I get some clarafication on this?
It was first discussed in A Three-Headed Hydra. However, the more detailed info will probably come from Lee Hammock's responses in the blog discussion thread. Just keep reading :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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GW proposes that characters can 'refresh' (HP, Mana, memorized spells I believe it included) once per day.
Understand this is only as I recall it. Changes may have taken place, and my memory is not all it was.
We're also creating a Refresh system. Characters can use particular abilities a certain number of times per four-hour in-game day, or until the player uses a Refresh—a special action characters take to refocus, rest, and regain abilities. This system avoids the situation where your character has nothing useful to do and is waiting for a new game day to begin before they can be productive. Using a Refresh requires at least fifteen seconds of uninterrupted time, so it's not something you can usually do in the middle of combat. Characters only have a limited number of Refreshes per game day.
Our design gives more Refreshes to new characters and fewer to experienced characters. Generally speaking, as a new character you will be able to do a few things often using Refresh, and as an experienced character you'll be able to do a wide variety of things without depending on a Refresh.
Characters have the opportunity to earn abilities that adjust the number of Refreshes they have, how long they take to use, and other special effects like going invisible or raising a magical shield while using a Refresh. The Refresh system introduces many meaningful decisions, such as choosing between using a Refresh before traveling through dangerous territory in case you get ambushed, or saving it for a battle at your destination.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In another thread, the O.P. made the point that those who choose to play evil will be at a disadvantage because evil clerics may not be able to heal as well as good clerics. It got me thinking on a topic that I have not read anything about - healing as a skill.
If the O.P. of that other thread is correct, it seems that there will be a need for alternative forms of healing. Even if the evil cleric issue turns out not to be a problem, I have always liked multiple means of healing in MMOs. Certainly, there is always alchemy - got a boo-boo, drink a potion - but as someone who has played nonclerical healers in past games, I would love to see such a class in PFO.
A physician skill where you could staunch bleeding, cure damage, neutralize poison, and all the other usual talents would be a nice skill to invest training time into for those who want some of the healing benefits without seeming to holy/unholy by going the cleric route. Certainly, what a physician could do with herbs and bandages is never going to match the abilities of a cleric backed by his/her deity, but again, it could provide for a more utilitarian form of healing (i.e. an every-man's healing or healing for the laity).
I'm sure Pathfinder tabletop has something similar, but I'm wondering how well it would translate to an MMO. Thoughts?
That other poster was wrong. The difference is that good clerics can sacrifice any spell they have prepared and turn it into a cure X wounds spell. Evil clerics can spontaneously convert to inflict X wounds spells. An evil cleric can still prepare cures and a good one can still prepare inflicts, it's just the spontaneous spell conversion that differs, not the effect. I doubt an MMO is going to use Vancian spell preparation in the way the tabletop game does.
Apart from the spells, clerics can channel positive or negative energy. Positive energy is channelled by good clerics and can heal living things or harm undead, and negative is channelled by evil ones and does the opposite. It's a weaker effect than the cure & inflict spells, and unless you take feats and have a good charisma score, you can't be picky about targets. A good cleric standing in the midst of a mixed group of allies and enemies who channels to heal, will affect them all equally.Paladins, rangers, and bards can all use cure spells, so it's not limited to clerics, or someone could work on the Use Magic Device skill and use cure wands to heal.
There is a Heal skill, but it is limited to minor effects like stabilizing people who are bleeding out, or giving someone a better shot at saving vs. a disease. It isn't like UO where you can provide unlimited amounts of healing with nothing but a stack of band-aids, until your target is wrapped up like a mummy. Adaptations of D&D which have included the skill (Neverwinter Nights, DDO) usually expand it a bit farther than that, but it's still no replacement for magical healing. Yeah, that icky 'M' word...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I certainly hope there is a need for healing outside of combat. Not something you have to do after every fight. But after so long, or from more serious wounds, you should need to get healing that takes a bit more time and attention you can only get in a non-combat setting. This opens up a lot of skill-line potential for healer type classes who don't even necessarily have to ever participate in combat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If out of combat healing is slow then everyone will take "levels" of cleric. Everyone!
You are assuming solo is intended to be viable and common, which GW has implied quite the opposite on numerous occasions (This isn't saying that soloing is not viable ever, it is saying that you generally can't solo major tasks, even gathering etc... has a drastically different style for when people solo vs party).
As well we also have to factor in limited threading, ability slots, gear requirements etc... GW has the full potential to make OOC healing take drastically more than take 3 levels of cleric to get cure moderate, with no added drawback. More gear needed means more unthreaded gear (IE higher loss on death), not everything can always be switched out easily etc...
In addition that is also an assumption based on the standard MMO that is balanced under the expectancy that every battle will start at 100%, IE every fight is expected to bring you down 50-75% of your HP.
Again DDO is a good example of this, HP regen wasn't just slow in DDO, it was non-existant, If you wanted to fill up your HP or mana, you had to gut it out to a checkpoint in the level. Healers have to heal smart (IE if they burn up all of their healing on the first fight, you've got 5 more fights before the next shrine with no healing), and DDO's fights were also scaled, if your party worked together correctly, planned out your battles etc... you could clear through many fights with very little HP loss.
The key point here is the harshness of not having always reneging HP, is directly proportional to whether the rest of the game is written expecting you to have full HP as the standard.