elf!
there's a reason elves became sort of cliche- they're awesome. pathfinder has done a pretty good job bringing racial power levels onto more level ground (at least for the base races), but Tolkien basically just unapologetically made elves more powerful than humans and that influenced every version of D&D and there are hints of it in Pathfinder. +2 spell penetration doesn't seem like much at 3rd level but later on when you start encountering more and more baddies with SR its pretty great (remember, too, that that bonus will double if he takes spell perfection). and do not underestimate the value of their weapon familiarity. that will likely become less significant as they level but dungeon crawls tend to include more challenges per day than 'standard' adventuring- which means running out of (useful) spells may be a real possibility... for an elf with 16 Dex (and 10 str), "i shot him with my longbow" is a perfectly viable option until at least like 6th level- with an ok str, if he's willing to invest a couple feats and memorize some transmutations, he can make a longsword or rapier his bonded item and be able to threaten (since you only need one hand free to cast), and attacking with it to conserve spells can, potentially, be a viable option for quite a while.
Elf is what I recommended so far to him. Weapon familiarity kinda sucks considering that he gets that free force missile power already. If he really needs more shots, he can always start putting favored class into increasing the number of uses he gets for the force missile, I think it was 2 levels worth for one extra use per day. However, weapon familiarity IS useful for Universalist Wizards (1d8 ranged damage with a longsword).
Actually, you are the first one on this forum to acknowledge that dungeoncrawls tend to suck a PC dry really fast, aside from me.
Yeah, I noticed the Tolkien boner for elves. The way PF has it set up, the race basically makes the perfect Wizard, especially if you exchange weapon familiarity, low light vision, and elven immunities for 1 energy resistance type 5 points worth, +2 cast defensively, and darkvision.
Did you guys look at Drow? They really seem like Elves but made for Sorcerers instead of Wizards.
Yeah, except for the fact you get reach, your weapon damage increases and the +2str also gives you damage.
Don't forget that cantrips can also be nice. Disrupt Undead in undead-heavy areas is a great cantrip and Acid Splash or Ray of Frost should hit more often than a xbow. A lvl1 scroll will set the character back for 12.5gp, hardly a big investment.
If you prefer that, don't play an evoker. Sleep/Color Spray are fantastic low level spells and often target saves that ain't too high. The 1 DC extra will help, but rarely will be fatal.
I wouldn't know. The cost of scribing spells has been changed in PF :) and it seems way easier on the wizard than the 3.5 rules.
The spell description doesn't say a thing about weapon damage increasing. Second, the bonus to hit you get from the Strength is negated from the size penalty to hit. That leaves you with an increased reach, lower AC, and +1 melee damage. Sucky spell.
This PC is not for me, it's for one of my players. I just wanted to know what race to recommend.
Being as low level as the group is, they just don't have the dough to spare for scrolls, wands etc.
don't underestimate the benefits of reach. the strength adds +1 damage on it's own, but when the melee weapon increases a step in size, so does it's damage. but the huge benefit is the reach it would provide the fighter.
try not to think greatsword or falchion. try this with a glaive and cestus, and you will enjoy the benefits of that 20 foot reach. combat reflexes makes this buff broken. when the 3rd level 20 (now 22) STR Fighter is dealing 2d8+12 damage from up to 20 feet away, you will appreciate that reach quite a bit.
a dungeon crawl drains resources, but you should be seeking ways to stretch your resources, rather than seek extra resources for example, acid splash. with acid splash, you don't need a force missile. it may be a d3, but it targets touch AC, ignores spell resistance entirely, and can stop a troll's regeneration. 1 extra spell per day isn't going to do a thing when you can use an alternative tactic that allows you to retain your spells for future use.
the point of being a wizard is being a SAD class that can afford to max out INT
CON and DEX are just the stats you don't wanna dump
This isn't a point buy game. This is a standard 4d6 best 3 out of 4, do this 6 times, arrange to taste.
Nobody in my game uses fancy stuff like glaives. The Fighter is using a 2 handed sword, the rogue is using a dagger (he's Small, so everything is a d4 anyway), the sorcerer is using her fire ray, spells, and heavy crossbow, and the cleric is just bashing away with his morningstar.
Finally, the sorcerer hasn't YET plumbed the bottom of her spell slots. 22 Charisma, a heavy crossbow, and an Dungeon Crawl Classics item that she gave up xp for to get a few spells extra per day called a crystal hand. The sorcerer is due to be replaced by the upcoming wizard, and the cleric is being replaced by another cleric.
I will duly show the player all the results of this thread, once I have shown him the list of possible races.
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No way in heck is even a Fighter gonna blow a feat on Persuasive. Too busy learning how to kick butt, if you think about it.
How the heck does a masterwork tool somehow apply to Intimidate? What does his doohickey do, growl at people?!
Also, most warrior types tend to be skill point shy. Fighters tend to put their skill ranks into Climb, Swim, and Ride, for example.
So...your fighter can't give a -2 save debuff because they are bad at building character and would rather put skill points into climb/swim/ride...all of which QUICKLY become irrelevant due to magical gear?!?
MW item intimidate...a scare looking mask...done.
And if you think that debuffing isn't kicking ass...well your just wrong. Not all encounters may warrant it, but the OPTION to do so is a freaking HUGE deal. Options is what makes wizards so powerful.
But yes, if your group is bad at optimizing and just make beat stick fighters, you won't see those numbers...but that does not mean that it is not possible to have a 7 cha fighter able to easily give a -2 debuff to an enemy save.
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This isn't a point buy game. This is a standard 4d6 best 3 out of 4, do this 6 times, arrange to taste.
Nobody in my game uses fancy stuff like glaives. The Fighter is using a 2 handed sword, the rogue is using a dagger (he's Small, so everything is a d4 anyway), the sorcerer is using her fire ray, spells, and heavy crossbow, and the cleric is just bashing away with his morningstar.
Finally, the sorcerer hasn't YET plumbed the bottom of her spell slots. 22 Charisma, a heavy crossbow, and an Dungeon Crawl Classics item that she gave up xp for to get a few spells extra per day called a crystal hand. The sorcerer is due to be replaced by the upcoming wizard, and the cleric is being replaced by another cleric.
I will duly show the player all the results of this thread, once I have shown him the list of possible races.
Glaive is fancy?!? Holy high heavens...yeah I think the stuff my fighters do will make your fighters cry....
Glaive is fancy?!? Holy high heavens...yeah I think the stuff my fighters do will make your fighters cry....This isn't a point buy game. This is a standard 4d6 best 3 out of 4, do this 6 times, arrange to taste.
Nobody in my game uses fancy stuff like glaives. The Fighter is using a 2 handed sword, the rogue is using a dagger (he's Small, so everything is a d4 anyway), the sorcerer is using her fire ray, spells, and heavy crossbow, and the cleric is just bashing away with his morningstar.
Finally, the sorcerer hasn't YET plumbed the bottom of her spell slots. 22 Charisma, a heavy crossbow, and an Dungeon Crawl Classics item that she gave up xp for to get a few spells extra per day called a crystal hand. The sorcerer is due to be replaced by the upcoming wizard, and the cleric is being replaced by another cleric.
I will duly show the player all the results of this thread, once I have shown him the list of possible races.
a glaive is a standard issue military weapon for the time frame. a lot cheaper to construct than a 2handed sword, using a lot less metal, which was precious, it was also easier to train with. the reach was a security advantage. in fact, most soldiers preferred to use their glaives over their 2handed swords.
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I would go with Elf, Tiefling or Human
Elfs: They get the benefit of +2 INT and +2 DEX, although they Dump Con. They have +2 to Spellcraft and +2 Spell Penetration that stacks with Spell Penetration feats, which is big late game, especially for an evoker. They also get +2 perception and low light vision
Tieflings: They get +2 INT and +2 DEX, while their negative is in CHA, their dump. They get resist 5 and can swap out the fiendish sorcery for a tail that can retrieve stored items like wands and scrolls as a swift aciton. Darkvision on top of that.
Humans: They get the +2 to any stat, the free Feat, and free skills, which you can never have enough of. You can also swap out your feat and skills for another +2 to another ability score, although I think the Feat and Skills are stronger.
Ultimately, it kinda depends on what you want to do. Elf's +2 to Spell Penetration is absolutely unique and SR is quite the pain in the butt.
You will often have only a 50% chance of sticking a spell if the enemy has SR. Elf makes this a bit easier.
samsaran. no bounus an elf gets, equals the 5 spells you get to pick as samsaran.
I believe the number of extra spells is 1 + your initial main casting stat. Since they get +2 to int, if you pushed for a 20 starting casting stat, thats 6 spells. Even sweeter! You have to set it that high by level 1 though because you dont get stat benefit increases to this spell list later.
But yeah, I say pick the (up to) 6 spells with Samsaran and "Mystic Past Life" alternate racial trait. Good stuff! Who doesnt like spell flexibility?! :)
Samsarans only get those spells if they have Charisma, which implies the DC is determined by Cha as well. Since this PC is a Wizard, Charisma is not going to be high.
Moot point. He picked an Elf, chucked the low light vision, elven immunities, and weapon profs for darkvision, bonus to casting defensively, and fire resistance 5. Skipped a familiar in favor of arcane bond. Gonna talk him into improved counterspell feat, figured it would be handy in combination. Picked an Evoker, opposing Illusion and Enchantment. Already took Casting Defensively so as to ensure he can't screw up.
Mystic Past Life (Su) You can add spells from another spellcasting class to the spell list of your current spellcasting class. You add a number of spells equal to 1 + your spellcasting class's key ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, and so on). The spells must be the same type (arcane or divine) as the spellcasting class you're adding them to. For example, you could add divine power to your druid class spell list, but not to your wizard class spell list because divine power is a divine spell. These spells do not have to be spells you can cast as a 1st-level character. The number of spells granted by this ability is set at 1st level. Changes to your ability score do not change the number of spells gained. This racial trait replaces shards of the past.
it uses your primary ability. elf is pretty good, but it seems unfair to player if he was given incorrect information.Samsaran is LOT better than a elf, esp if the player is new, because there alot of bard or witch spells that can help a new player out.
Well, I don't know of many bard or witch specific spells that are of much use, personally. He's not the sort to like enchantment or illusion, as you can see. He's a lot more direct when it comes to spells, unlike me.
Besides, he's a 3rd level Wizard. Right now, skill points are more important to play than spells.
well bards and witches get cure spells.
witches have raise dead
bards have buffs like good hope which stack with haste, not to mention silence.
there is also the summoner spell list.
skills points over 5-6 spells you get to hand pick?
Hit points i could understand, can't cast spells if your dead, although being able to self heal, does help a bit, but skill points?
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Umm not many bard or witch spells of not much use?!? Seriously? You can take hideous laughter as a 1st level spell from the bard. Bards and witch have cure spells. Witch has heal, remove disease, death ward, neutralize poison. He could be casting haste on the party RIGHT NOW at level 3 with the summoner's haste as a 2nd level spell.
Seriously, nothing matches the samsaran for power gaming fu for casters...ANY caster. That doesn't mean you can't make a perfectly viable caster with other races...but seriously, they are the one choice that is VASTLY superior.
As for needing skills more...meh. I find spells can surplant skill in oh so many cases...but you need a good caster player for that to hold true. I think most of the advice given so far is gonna be of little use however for your group as your group just lacks the system mastery to use it. Even if I built out an utterly broken samsaran wizard, your players wouldn't know what to do with it if they think using a basic reach weapon for a fighter is fancy.
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^Sounds like be a huge cheeseweasel in my opinion. Summoners get the most powerful wizard spells in the game 1, sometimes 2 levels before a regular wizard does.
You are telling me I could take Mystic Past Life and cast Greater Planar Binding, Maze, Summon Monster 8, and Dominate Monster all as 6th level spells?
The absolute definition of broken.
Kiddies, I don't restrict what spells are available in the game. If a given Wizard wants to get a certain spell, GO RIGHT AHEAD. That negates the "advantage" of being a Samsaran right there.
You know how I handle which spells are available? Simple. If a NPC Wizard has a spellbook, and the PC can convince them to copy or to buy a scroll, they can have all the spells that are in there. Plus, enemy spellbooks are very copyable and definitely valuable for gold after the PC is done with them.
As for what Elamdri describes, the instant one of my players tried to do that, I'd slap down their character so fast it'd be messy just to watch.
These guys ARE new to the game, all of them. Only one has any real experience aside from me, and he's running the Fighter. He knows what he's doing, as he is paranoid enough to try to use his feats to plug the weaknesses in his PC in the first few levels.
The guy playing the Wizard is a newbie, and I implied that by asking what a good Wizard race to recommend to him was in the *title* of this thread.
Cold Napalm, your post is being reported for taking personal potshots. Grow up.
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My suggestions as stated are Tiefling, Wizard and Elf. Elf is very good late game and I think edges out the other two due to the free spell penetration.
If you do not expect your game to go that far, Tiefling may be the superior choice due to dumping Cha instead of Con
If you are worried about taking negatives to a stat altogether or just worried about feats, Human is the way to go.
Huh. Well, I can suggest Tiefling or some sort of variant. Still and all, this character seems to be made to be bumble-proof. For feats, we have Improved Counterspell and Combat Casting, so far. Thus, Elf would work great, since all of it's abilities apply directly to general spellcasting as a Wizard. Even the fire resistance 5 applies, due to possible Fireball backlash.
Right now, I am debating what sort of item to give him. He brought some pop and chips for everyone, and while he didn't know it, I encourage that sort of behavior. Something small, but nice.
A Campfire Bead maybe? A Gut Stone?
A Campfire Bead maybe? A Gut Stone?
Something like that. A masterwork weapon would be nice. Maybe it's inherited. The last thing wizards want to do is fight, but at low levels, a +1 to hit will be appreciated at some point or other, in my experience. YMMV.
Kiddies, I don't restrict what spells are available in the game. If a given Wizard wants to get a certain spell, GO RIGHT AHEAD. That negates the "advantage" of being a Samsaran right there.
You know how I handle which spells are available? Simple. If a NPC Wizard has a spellbook, and the PC can convince them to copy or to buy a scroll, they can have all the spells that are in there. Plus, enemy spellbooks are very copyable and definitely valuable for gold after the PC is done with them.
As for what Elamdri describes, the instant one of my players tried to do that, I'd slap down their character so fast it'd be messy just to watch.
These guys ARE new to the game, all of them. Only one has any real experience aside from me, and he's running the Fighter. He knows what he's doing, as he is paranoid enough to try to use his feats to plug the weaknesses in his PC in the first few levels.
The guy playing the Wizard is a newbie, and I implied that by asking what a good Wizard race to recommend to him was in the *title* of this thread.
Cold Napalm, your post is being reported for taking personal potshots. Grow up.
I don't think you understand the mechanics of the game very well. spells avaible have nothing to with the samsaran abilities.
as for cold napalm, i don't think he took any potshots at all. He was being quite honest. you reasoning for choosing an elf over a samsaran makes no sense.
your posit that spell avabiilty negating the samsaran strenghts makes no sense. what does spell availibility have to with a wizard being able to case raise dead, or cure light wounds, or silence? there are no wizard scrolls for those spells because they aren't wizard spells. if you are house ruling that any class can get other class spells, why are you even using classes? second how would any wizard not a samsaran have
cure spells in his spell book.
i think you need to review the rules of the game, particualary spell list, spell casting and races, because what you said doesn't make any sense.
I don't think you understand the mechanics of the game very well. spells avaible have nothing to with the samsaran abilities.as for cold napalm, i don't think he took any potshots at all. He was being quite honest. you reasoning for choosing an elf over a samsaran makes no sense.
your posit that spell avabiilty negating the samsaran strenghts makes no sense. what does spell availibility have to with a wizard being able to case raise dead, or cure light wounds, or silence? there are no wizard scrolls for those spells because they aren't wizard spells. if you are house ruling that any class can get other class spells, why are you even using classes? second how would any wizard not a samsaran have
cure spells in his spell book.i think you need to review the rules of the game, particualary spell list, spell casting and races, because what you said...
Yes, actually I do. Did you look at their entry in the APG? One can sub in an ability that when combined with other class spell lists, allows for getting spells far in advance of their normal Wizard level. Or allow Raise Dead to wizards etc.
That alone would be enough to either ban that particular option or ban the race from my game.
You can go sit and stew. What Cold Napalm said was outright offensive.
I don't think you understand the mechanics of the game very well. spells avaible have nothing to with the samsaran abilities.as for cold napalm, i don't think he took any potshots at all. He was being quite honest. you reasoning for choosing an elf over a samsaran makes no sense.
your posit that spell avabiilty negating the samsaran strenghts makes no sense. what does spell availibility have to with a wizard being able to case raise dead, or cure light wounds, or silence? there are no wizard scrolls for those spells because they aren't wizard spells. if you are house ruling that any class can get other class spells, why are you even using classes? second how would any wizard not a samsaran have
cure spells in his spell book.i think you need to review the rules of the game, particualary spell list, spell casting and races, because what you said...
Yes, actually I do. Did you look at their entry in the APG? One can sub in an ability that when combined with other class spell lists, allows for getting spells far in advance of their normal Wizard level. Or allow Raise Dead to wizards etc.
That alone would be enough to either ban that particular option or ban the race from my game.
You can go sit and stew. What Cold Napalm said was outright offensive.
Huh? I'm not really sure what you just said, but you seemed to have moved the goal posts. It's one thing to say, well he choose elf because I as the GM think the Samsaran ability is too powerful, and thus they are not allowed to be a choice. it's quite another to say you chose elf because they are better, which is objectively incorrect, which is what cold napalm told you, if you didnt like the answer, then you shouldnt have asked the question. it's also another thing to say that spell availbility negates the Samsaran advantage, or that three skill points is superior to mystic past life, which to my ear, sounds like you do not have a firm grasp of the basic mechanics of the game, as those position are contridictary with the way the game works not so much as an " role paying game" but as a collection of rules.
Again your last comment indicate to me that you need to review the game. In one of your respones you replied, who cares about adding spells from the bard and witch list, and now you are aghast about raise dead, which is a spell on the witch list.
You came and asked a question under the "current rules what is best wizard race"- the answer is the samsaran, without reservation or caveat.
if you find them too powerful- then the answer is either elf/human/sylph.
I am hereby shutting down my responses to this thread. This is ridiculous. Cold Napalm is taking personal potshots.
This might surprise this ikariwhatever person, but the reason why the Witch gets spells like Raise Dead early is that they can't do much for offensive spells. It's a balance. However, using the option in Samsarans to get such potent spells early for Wizards is in itself a game breaker, and ragingly munchkin.
Hope that clarifies it to you two. I'm done with the lot of you. Bye.
the samsaran allows you to take spells from other classes list.
you could easily limit it to new spells instead of discounting existing spells.
but the witch can't do much for offensive spells?
the witch has an at will save or die, and the evocation school isn't as powerful as one would glorify it to be.
the witch has plenty of offense
slumber, will save, or become coup de grace fodder
ill omen, lower enemy accuracy drastically without a saving throw
burning hands, with intensify spell, you can clear swarms
summon monster, summon a monster to fight for you
glitterdust, aoe blind/reveal that also harms golems
enervation, inflict penalties before you cast your save or die
fear, potentially take multiple foes out of the fight long enough to focus fire, not because of damage, but because they dropped their weapons and suddenly became shaggy.
dominate person, turn the big bad brute into your slave
phantasmal killer
and all this is available before 10th level
just because the witch lacks flashy explosions doesn't mean it lacks offense. it packs plenty.
and the samsaran wizard choosing raise dead or heal, isn't really doing much but assisting the cleric by removing a share of the burden.
Samsaran aren't even that powerful, outside of milking spells from other classes lists. unless you like getting what amounts to 2 traits for free. which is the other option.
if the ability is too powerful, it is because you aren't applying common sense, and are allowing the player to poach discounted spells, which goes against the RAI. it was intended as a means to expand versatility, not a means to raid the summoner list for discounts.
it also makes sense to look at the level the class gets the spell and adjust the stolen spell accordingly.
holy sword may be a 4th level spell for a paladin, but at paladin 13, it makes sense as a 7th level cleric spell.
applying this, rebalances those once overpowered spells misleveled for partial casters.
If it weren't intended to allow you to poach discounted spells it wouldn't increase the level of spells not on your list. It would just increase the level of spells with no qualifier because if it couldn't be used to get discounts on spells already on your list spells not on your list would be all it would work on.
it was intended to get you spells you couldn't normally cast, like raise dead, heal, or the inspirations for a wizard or barkskin and entangle for a cleric.
it wasn't intended for clear exploits like getting summon monster 9 as a 6th level spell or haste/slow as 2nd level spells.
in fact, most of the summoner list stuff would be best ignored as if it didnt exist. because it is a frequently banned class, it changed a lot of metagame features such as item prices, and the class is also so clunky and full of complex rules features, that it would seem overpowered. in fact, it even brings back 3.5 wildshape through the help of an archetype.
Samsaran aren't even that powerful, outside of milking spells from other classes lists. unless you like getting what amounts to 2 traits for free. which is the other option.
if the ability is too powerful, it is because you aren't applying common sense, and are allowing the player to poach discounted spells, which goes against the RAI. it was intended as a means to expand versatility, not a means to raid the summoner list for discounts.
it also makes sense to look at the level the class gets the spell and adjust the stolen spell accordingly.
holy sword may be a 4th level spell for a paladin, but at paladin 13, it makes sense as a 7th level cleric spell.
applying this, rebalances those once overpowered spells misleveled for partial casters.
I would note that James Jacobs who bans summoners in his game, is perefectly fine with the cleric getting holy sword at 4th level.
If you want to house rule, house rule. I'm sorry but what does common sesne have to do with a clearly written ability? the ability clearly allows you to add spells from other caster lists, as though you were that caster- a past life.
If you don't like the ability fine, but don't say that people aren't reading the rules incorrectly or not applying common sense when the ability is clearly written, and it does what it does, if you don't like it don't allow it in your game, that that has nothing to with RAW. and RAW it does and says very clearly, with no ambiquity.
I am hereby shutting down my responses to this thread. This is ridiculous. Cold Napalm is taking personal potshots.
This might surprise this ikariwhatever person, but the reason why the Witch gets spells like Raise Dead early is that they can't do much for offensive spells. It's a balance. However, using the option in Samsarans to get such potent spells early for Wizards is in itself a game breaker, and ragingly munchkin.
Hope that clarifies it to you two. I'm done with the lot of you. Bye.
Again what does one thing have to do with the other? witches are one of the most offensive classes in game, again please read the rules, because each time you make a comment you display a lack of knowledge regarding the capabilities of each class.
seems like you guys are attacking him because he didnt take your advice about samsarans and you're just pissy about it
elves are still a good race, and probably the best evokers
now you're just coming up with pretty ways to call him stupid because he has a different opinion about the merit of a particular class than you do
looking at it objectively, you're being a jerk
seems like you guys are attacking him because he didnt take your advice about samsarans and you're just pissy about it
It's happened in a few threads.
Samsaran aren't even that powerful, outside of milking spells from other classes lists. unless you like getting what amounts to 2 traits for free. which is the other option.
if the ability is too powerful, it is because you aren't applying common sense, and are allowing the player to poach discounted spells, which goes against the RAI. it was intended as a means to expand versatility, not a means to raid the summoner list for discounts.
it also makes sense to look at the level the class gets the spell and adjust the stolen spell accordingly.
holy sword may be a 4th level spell for a paladin, but at paladin 13, it makes sense as a 7th level cleric spell.
applying this, rebalances those once overpowered spells misleveled for partial casters.
I would note that James Jacobs who bans summoners in his game, is perefectly fine with the cleric getting holy sword at 4th level.
If you want to house rule, house rule. I'm sorry but what does common sesne have to do with a clearly written ability? the ability clearly allows you to add spells from other caster lists, as though you were that caster- a past life.
If you don't like the ability fine, but don't say that people aren't reading the rules incorrectly or not applying common sense when the ability is clearly written, and it does what it does, if you don't like it don't allow it in your game, that that has nothing to with RAW. and RAW it does and says very clearly, with no ambiquity.
i admit that it is a houserule, but it is one based on intent. it prevents summoner poaching, and prevents early access to spells a character wouldn't have at those levels without this variant.
especially when holy sword, a 4th level spell, is far superior to versatile weapon, because you get to blatantly ignore DR, get the full bonus earlier, and get a bigger bonus for a sizeable portion of the fight.
the reason it is a 4th level spell for a paladin, is because 4th level paladin spells are generally equal to 7th level cleric spells or 5th level inquisitor spells. due to a paladin's slower progression.
i have no problem with milking ill omen, the inspirations, or even heal or raise dead.
but i do have a problem when a racial ability allows access to a spell 6 levels earlier than intended, for a class that wouldn't normally get that spell otherwise. especially when it is a buff stronger than several other level appropriate buffs for several levels. because the level on the buff was lowered to be shoehorned into a class with a slower progression.
you are talking about getting what amounts to a 7th level spell, normally restricted to level 13+ at 7th level for a 4th level slot.
it is like a samsaran wizard poaching summon monster 9 as a 6th level spell off the summoner list. a spell restricted to 17+ for a 9th level slot, at 11th level for a 6th level slot. i would rather not have the samsaran, by virtue of race choice alone, milk a 3 level discount on a spell. a 1 level discount is iffy, yet tolerable, 2 is kind of pushing it, for spell levels, but when an ability is discounted by 3 whole spell levels, in other words, available 6 character levels earlier than intended, that is a problem.
for the holy sword scenario, it isn't an issue with the spell's power, it's an issue with what was once limited access economy on a class with limited resources to afford, being afforded by a class who can afford drastically more of those resources at a faster rate and earlier time.
which is why i include the spell level changes as a houserule.
it's not breaking power levels, it's breaking the game's resource economy.
by making a limited use spell from a limited class far more readily available 6 levels earlier with a given race.
it's not that i don't like the ability, it's that i don't like how little effort it takes to abuse it. maybe if the ability were more readily available (as a feat or something). i would be more tolerant.
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I am hereby shutting down my responses to this thread. This is ridiculous. Cold Napalm is taking personal potshots.
This might surprise this ikariwhatever person, but the reason why the Witch gets spells like Raise Dead early is that they can't do much for offensive spells. It's a balance. However, using the option in Samsarans to get such potent spells early for Wizards is in itself a game breaker, and ragingly munchkin.
Hope that clarifies it to you two. I'm done with the lot of you. Bye.
Still not personal potshot. The fact that you still lack a great deal of system mastery is neither false, personal or an attack. It's just a statement of your current level of skill. Wanna get better at it? Then sit down and listen instead of getting butt hurt because your being told a truth.
And yet ANOTHER reason you obviously have no idea how the game works. The witch has AT LEAST as good SoS/SoD effects as the wizard...if NOT BETTER. And yes, the samsaran ability to poach spells from the witch, bard and summoner is powerful. I would not say game breakingly so, but THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO TELL YOU SINCE THE START YOU NIT WIT (see that was a personal attack...but sorry, seriously you kinda need this at this point so you can tell the difference). The fact that you just tossed the M word around an ability that is COMMONLY used around this board (even JJ supports it) really doesn't help your cause.
Oh so sorry to see you go...actually don't really care. Why do people say such silly ultimatums like this? Do they think that we the forumites actually CARE that you think your done with us? Are you so egotistical to think that you REALLY matter that much? Truth is, you don't really matter that much and we don't really care. But hey, if it makes you feel like the man...have at it.
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If it weren't intended to allow you to poach discounted spells it wouldn't increase the level of spells not on your list. It would just increase the level of spells with no qualifier because if it couldn't be used to get discounts on spells already on your list spells not on your list would be all it would work on.it was intended to get you spells you couldn't normally cast, like raise dead, heal, or the inspirations for a wizard or barkskin and entangle for a cleric.
it wasn't intended for clear exploits like getting summon monster 9 as a 6th level spell or haste/slow as 2nd level spells.
in fact, most of the summoner list stuff would be best ignored as if it didnt exist. because it is a frequently banned class, it changed a lot of metagame features such as item prices, and the class is also so clunky and full of complex rules features, that it would seem overpowered. in fact, it even brings back 3.5 wildshape through the help of an archetype.
You do realize that the summoner only get summon monster 8 as a spell right? Summon monster 9 is only via spell like ability of the class which can not be poached. Course you can poach the dominate monster spell....
You do realize that the summoner only get summon monster 8 as a spell right? Summon monster 9 is only via spell like ability of the class which can not be poached. Course you can poach the dominate monster spell....If it weren't intended to allow you to poach discounted spells it wouldn't increase the level of spells not on your list. It would just increase the level of spells with no qualifier because if it couldn't be used to get discounts on spells already on your list spells not on your list would be all it would work on.it was intended to get you spells you couldn't normally cast, like raise dead, heal, or the inspirations for a wizard or barkskin and entangle for a cleric.
it wasn't intended for clear exploits like getting summon monster 9 as a 6th level spell or haste/slow as 2nd level spells.
in fact, most of the summoner list stuff would be best ignored as if it didnt exist. because it is a frequently banned class, it changed a lot of metagame features such as item prices, and the class is also so clunky and full of complex rules features, that it would seem overpowered. in fact, it even brings back 3.5 wildshape through the help of an archetype.
must have misread the spell list. sorry.
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must have misread the spell list. sorry.You do realize that the summoner only get summon monster 8 as a spell right? Summon monster 9 is only via spell like ability of the class which can not be poached. Course you can poach the dominate monster spell....If it weren't intended to allow you to poach discounted spells it wouldn't increase the level of spells not on your list. It would just increase the level of spells with no qualifier because if it couldn't be used to get discounts on spells already on your list spells not on your list would be all it would work on.it was intended to get you spells you couldn't normally cast, like raise dead, heal, or the inspirations for a wizard or barkskin and entangle for a cleric.
it wasn't intended for clear exploits like getting summon monster 9 as a 6th level spell or haste/slow as 2nd level spells.
in fact, most of the summoner list stuff would be best ignored as if it didnt exist. because it is a frequently banned class, it changed a lot of metagame features such as item prices, and the class is also so clunky and full of complex rules features, that it would seem overpowered. in fact, it even brings back 3.5 wildshape through the help of an archetype.
Well, your details may have been off...but your point was still there with dominate monster :P .
seems like you guys are attacking him because he didnt take your advice about samsarans and you're just pissy about it
elves are still a good race, and probably the best evokers
now you're just coming up with pretty ways to call him stupid because he has a different opinion about the merit of a particular class than you do
looking at it objectively, you're being a jerk
Why do people always believe that ignorant=stupid? nowhere did i call him stupid, i said that his reasons gave the impression that he did not have a good grasp of rules- that is not stupidity that is ignorance. there is a difference. He mistated the Samsaran ability, He then equated that the samsaran ability was the same as spell ability, he mistated how the power worked. he couldn't comprehend why a wizard might want to take spells from the bard or witch list and further stated that a feat could somehow accomplish the same things.
My suggestion was that he re-read the rules, because his answers didn't make sense with the rules. At no time did I insult his intelligence. I only questioned and with reason, his knowledge of the rules of the game.