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What he's saying is that, as a man, you don't know what it's like to be a woman in an environment like the gaming hobby. Some of us are trying to talk about our experiences in the hopes that you can understand and empathise with usDo you just want the understanding and empathy or do you want it to lead to a change in behavior?
BNW, I've found that understanding and empathy inevitable change behavior. In small ways, but often significant ones.
(tangent)
PFS needs more female GMs
Paizo should put together a Mentoring program and Pilot it.
The best place to start the Pilot would be Paizo Con.
You have awsome resources available at Paizo Con.... Lisa, Lillith, Judy yourself.
Make it more than a pannel, get hands on.
You want to make women feel comfortable in a big hall situation with lots of tables being run by men change the ratio to 50/50.
More female GMs = More male GMs learning from female GMs, sharing experience and culture.
The best way to make a change is top down.
Now that's a cool and useful idea. I'll see if I can round up some women who are interested.
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Do you have women in the group? No? Then I really don't care (even theoretically) what you say there. It's your business, same as when you go out drinking with your male friends. I care if there's a woman in your group who's being made uncomfortable by what you do and say.On the flip side of this, and please don't attack me for it. My home group is an all male group. We're late 30's early 40's and most are married with kids.
We game as escapism. It's our equivalent of the friday night card game. We get together, laugh, roll dice and kill things in a fantasy world. Often we get outrageous in our antics in game and say the most amazingly politically incorrect things to each other, as parody rather than true belief.
We do this to let off steam. Nearly all of us are in jobs where we work with people of all genders. Political correctness has gotten so intense now that you almost constantly have to guard what is said all the time. To the point where some conversations becomes meaningless fencing around difficult topics.
As such, our roleplay is our Man Cave, so to speak. It's where we go to be men, in the presence of other men, where the things we say don't offend anyone. It's blowing off steam.
Understood, which is why we don't behave like that in front of women, or anyone who'd be offended for that matter.
I guess my point was to try and paint the behaviour of men in some light.
I believe the majority of people who play this game nowadays are thoughtful and intelligent. Most would be considerate of the emotions of others. Of course that is only in my experience over the years I've played.
However, as I stated in a later post, some men are socially inept, they don't understand boundaries. They are the fringes of society at the best of times. These folks are the ones who can destroy a game for anyone, not just women.
What is the goal here? If you want more women at public venues, then start weeding these social pariahs out. Trying to change them may not succeed, especially if they're already out of their teens. They've had an entire system of education and society trying to show them acceptable standards and that failed. Maybe you need tone more selective in who gets to play at conventions for just this reason. That's a very slippery slope though.
If you're just after more women who get to play in general, look at other means of recruiting. Gymnasiums did this by providing women only areas, or women only gyms. It worked amazingly well to change around an almost exclusively male dominated area.
Target groups who offer women opportunities to branch out. My wife recently applied for a whole range of activities run by a group called "adventures for women". Noting role play, it was activates such as horse riding, canoeing, camping etc. only women could apply for the experience. She booked late in the morning, but it was so popular, she missed out on some activities.
There are women out there who want this game, particularly young adolescents or early 20 odd. Find a place they aggregate already and advertise. Get adds into school magazines. Offer the chance for"collaborative story telling" and run classes for dming and world building. Hit up libraries where women's reading groups form, particularly those who focus on fantasy genre.
Hope some of those ideas are useful
Cheers
Ps maybe offer incentive packages for local DM's to start recruiting or school clubs or library sessions or some such. Traditionally, it's the local gaming store where adds for games are presented. My experience is that women don't tend to go here, due to the social stigma placed on them. Get the advertising out of the game stores and into the mainstream.
BNW, ideally, the latter; but you can only have that with the former.
It certainly makes it easier but its not strictly required. If i know a social rule is "no commenting on appearances" I can follow that rule without necessarily understanding the feeling behind it.
Conversely, just understanding the feeling isn't enough to lead to a change in behavior. Its one thing to know, in an abstract sense, that the groups tone or body language might be off putting, but its a different thing to put that knowledge to use. That's social skills, and its something lacking in enough gamers to be noticeable.
If you don't want to change anything based on what you read here, that's your prerogative. Unfortunate, in my eyes, but I would not take that right away from you. It's a "you can lead a horse to water" kind of situation, really.
And if your horse isn't drinking, do you just throw your hands up and move on, or do you ask Mr. Ed?
Re: the calls for women's game nights from several people, Raygun Lounge here in Seattle has a monthly one, and it's great—at once enthusiastic and low-pressure, plus you get exposure to a ton of new games. If you're in the area, I recommend it!
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Re: the calls for women's game nights from several people, Raygun Lounge here in Seattle has a monthly one, and it's great—at once enthusiastic and low-pressure, plus you get exposure to a ton of new games. If you're in the area, I recommend it!
Are only women allowed to play/attend? If so, and you are fine with that, I assume you'd also be fine with a "men's night" that excluded all female gamers? Or would that be unfair and exclusionary?
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I think if someone wants to fit in with a new group, It's best to not start off attacking and insulting them based on stereotypes like their gender and then wondering why they get defensive about it, and demanding that they accept your premise that they are the problem and need to change.Without intending to, you've made Jess' point very succinctly.
Just read "them" in your quote as being that new someone who wants to join the group, and you have her premise about how to deal with female gamers. It just boils down to being more aware of "them", whoever "they" are.
Despite your later post, I actually agree with that entirely. 100%! Yes, the males in the group should also treat the women as individuals, not as stereotypes. I treat people as individuals, not as a "member of the [race], [gender], [insert group]". You might remember MLK said a little something about that, and it applies to gender as much as race. That's how I want and expect to be treated, and so that is how I treat others in return.
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Are only women allowed to play/attend? If so, and you are fine with that, I assume you'd also be fine with a "men's night" that excluded all female gamers? Or would that be unfair and exclusionary?
Really? This argument? *facepalm*
Firstly, the default for gaming is already very often exclusionary to women. Men don't need to have their own "men's club" because their gender is already the default assumption.
Secondly, the women's night kind of thing is fundamentally not about you. It's about the women. It's about making them feel comfortable and not feel like the odd one out. If you, as a man, feel uncomfortable playing in what is already a male-dominated activity, it most likely has nothing to do with your gender and is related to something else. In which case a "men's night" doesn't solve anything and is just exclusionary for no reason.
Thirdly, what reason would you need a men's only game? The women's game (if it is indeed women only, which I am not sure of) has a clear purpose: create a comfortable atmosphere for women to be exposed to gaming without the usual threat of sexism and so forth.
A women's only game is not about you. I repeat: IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU. It is about giving women a bit of a help in an area that is somewhat stacked against them. It is not about disadvantaging you in any way, shape, or form.
Note: Not referring to games where all players are men, like what earlier posters talked about. Seriously, I don't care if that's what you do with your mates, go right ahead. This is more of an open to the public kind of thing.
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Are only women allowed to play/attend? If so, and you are fine with that, I assume you'd also be fine with a "men's night" that excluded all female gamers? Or would that be unfair and exclusionary?Really? This argument? *facepalm*
Firstly, the default for gaming is already very often exclusionary to women. Men don't need to have their own "men's club" because their gender is already the default assumption.
Secondly, the women's night kind of thing is fundamentally not about you. It's about the women. It's about making them feel comfortable and not feel like the odd one out. If you, as a man, feel uncomfortable playing in what is already a male-dominated activity, it most likely has nothing to do with your gender and is related to something else. In which case a "men's night" doesn't solve anything and is just exclusionary for no reason.
Thirdly, what reason would you need a men's only game? The women's game (if it is indeed women only, which I am not sure of) has a clear purpose: create a comfortable atmosphere for women to be exposed to gaming without the usual threat of sexism and so forth.
A women's only game is not about you. I repeat: IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU. It is about giving women a bit of a help in an area that is somewhat stacked against them. It is not about disadvantaging you in any way, shape, or form.
Note: Not referring to games where all players are men, like what earlier posters talked about. Seriously, I don't care if that's what you do with your mates, go right ahead. This is more of an open to the public kind of thing.
It's "not about me" in the same way a male-only golf club or military academy isn't about women. Sorry ladies, but if you are going to kick in the doors of every single men's institution and group, demanding membership and forcing your way in simply because its there even when "it's not about you", then equality means the same right back. "Female-only" public game sessions are sexist and exclusionary. If someone wants to do that in their own home, then like you said, that's their home, their right to choose. But don't bring that into the public sphere. And it also fosters misandry and double standards by saying a woman should always be allowed to join a men's game group (and the men should change to accommodate her presence, which is what this thread was about) but men should not be able to join a woman's game group at all.
In my 32 years of gaming experience, gamers tend to be pretty good people overall. They are imaginative, creative, and desirous of social interaction. Many (including me) were labeled "geeks" and "nerds" in school and didn't have all the socialization the more popular kids got, but the vast majority are well-meaning and harmless even if they can be inept at times. All these stereotypes of "creeps" and being frightened of even having a male at the game table just doesn't match with my experience at all, and I've been in hundreds of games with women over the years. There are some jerks out there, as there are in all walks of life, but you can't let a few bad apples dictate your responses to entire categories of people, like "male gamers".
Like I said before, just as men need to drop their stereotypes of female gamers and treat each woman as an individual, so too must women drop their stereotypes of male gamers. Just get in there and play, hold your own, and earn the respect you want with great ideas, heroic actions, crafty solutions to puzzles and traps, and intelligent roleplaying. If you do, I'm positive the vast majority of game groups will accept you as an equal and valued member of the group, just as they would a new male player who eventually earns his stripes. And the few groups that won't do that, whether you are male or female, dump them and find a better group.
Samurai may i ask where you come from?
I have to say asking for inclusion and change of behaviour on the one side and then being exclusive on the other side is a bit strange. For me that definately has a taste and i have real life reason to say so. We have things like that going on here since several years and the results are really questionable.
@ TanithT: I don´t know about americans, but where i come from i never saw such behaviour.
I don´t like this thing coming up here, women=cool, guy - especially white guy - normally=jerk. Some stuff is beginning to read like that, but the world is not as simple. I think statements like this are not helping this debate.
Hayato Ken, can I ask where you come from?
Germany.
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I don´t like this thing coming up here, women=cool, guy - especially white guy - normally=jerk. Some stuff is beginning to read like that, but the world is not as simple. I think statements like this are not helping this debate.
I want to clarify that I most certainly do not think anything like that. I love guys! I respect my father more than just about everyone in the world. Pretty much all of my closest friends are men. Men are awesome! Yay for guys!
I'm also pretty optimistic and I believe most people are pretty decent at heart. It's more a problem of lack of knowledge and understanding than maliciousness.
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Samurai may i ask where you come from?
I have to say asking for inclusion and change of behaviour on the one side and then being exclusive on the other side is a bit strange. For me that definately has a taste and i have real life reason to say so. We have things like that going on here since several years and the results are really questionable.
@ TanithT: I don´t know about americans, but where i come from i never saw such behaviour.
I don´t like this thing coming up here, women=cool, guy - especially white guy - normally=jerk. Some stuff is beginning to read like that, but the world is not as simple. I think statements like this are not helping this debate.
I'm from America, though I have also lived in Japan. And I agree, asking for inclusion in other public groups while being exclusive in your own group isn't fair. (Like I and others have said, though, what you do in your home group is your choice). If I lived anywhere near Seattle, I'd make a point of attending those "lady's game nights" just on principle, fairness, and equality.
IMO radical feminism has harmed the relationship between men and women by unfairly casting all men as "dangerous", and "potential rapists", and other such baloney. If you feel half the population around you is no different than a pack of rabid dogs that might tear you to pieces at any moment, that naturally builds distrust, fear, and a desire to exclude men from "woman-safe areas". That kind of stereotyping really needs to change if we are all going to work together to find common ground rather than end up in an adversarial relationship.
Can we get a Paizo person to come an Lock This Thread?
It has been so thoroughly derailed that it no longer serves any useful purpose.
Speaking as a dude, I think it might serve some small purpose, just for the rest of us. :)
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Samurai, I don't think that kind of attitude is the fault of rad-fems.
Jessica mentioned a statistic earlier in this thread: 1 in 5 women have been raped. That is a lot of rape victims. Many of them are blamed for the crime as well--Why didn't you fight back? Why were you wearing that miniskirt? Why did you go out at night? Why did you flirt with that guy? Why did you drink so much?
Women are taught from a young age that we have to be incredibly careful, not because of rad-fems, but because 1 in 5 of us will become a rape victim, and society at large generally places us at fault for it.
Rape campaigns are increasingly focusing on telling people to not be a perpetrator rather than telling them to not be a victim, thankfully. And I hope that it has an influence on that statistic. But in the meantime, when there are so many women who are victims of rape-- who have faced sexism in their lives, in their hobbies and in the things they love-- when society at large has yet to change to be fully accepting of women as "people"-- you have to understand that women can't, and shouldn't, simply "man up" (to be incredibly ironic) and try to deal with what is often an incredibly uncomfortable atmosphere for many of them. A little bit of understanding of the type of world they have grown up in is all that they ask for.
In an ideal world, there would be no need for things like positive discrimination-- but we're not there yet. Alas.
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Samurai, I don't think that kind of attitude is the fault of rad-fems.
Jessica mentioned a statistic earlier in this thread: 1 in 5 women have been raped. That is a lot of rape victims. Many of them are blamed for the crime as well--Why didn't you fight back? Why were you wearing that miniskirt? Why did you go out at night? Why did you flirt with that guy? Why did you drink so much?
Women are taught from a young age that we have to be incredibly careful, not because of rad-fems, but because 1 in 5 of us will become a rape victim, and society at large generally places us at fault for it.
Rape campaigns are increasingly focusing on telling people to not be a perpetrator rather than telling them to not be a victim, thankfully. And I hope that it has an influence on that statistic. But in the meantime, when there are so many women who are victims of rape-- who have faced sexism in their lives, in their hobbies and in the things they love-- when society at large has yet to change to be fully accepting of women as "people"-- you have to understand that women can't, and shouldn't, simply "man up" (to be incredibly ironic) and try to deal with what is often an incredibly uncomfortable atmosphere for many of them. A little bit of understanding of the type of world they have grown up in is all that they ask for.
In an ideal world, there would be no need for things like positive discrimination-- but we're not there yet. Alas.
+1
Victim blaming is one of the most poisonous problems that we still haven't shaken off even as we point out its more obvious manifestations in other parts of the world.
And it keeps rearing its head even here as well. Had to skip on one of the parallel threads for a while because dammit, that's enough to make someone completely lose their @#$%.
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Can we get a Paizo person to come an Lock This Thread?
It has been so thoroughly derailed that it no longer serves any useful purpose.
I think an honest discussion of fears, feelings, and beliefs is the best way to bridge the gaps between the sexes, why would you want to stop that? IMO open honesty is what's needed on both sides in order to break down stereotypes of men and women held by the other gender, both at the gaming table and away from it.
@Alice: i had no such impression from you.
Rather i think many men state things like that. Which falls into a similar category than giving unasked consulting while gaming to the perhaps new or unexperienced female player. Some would call it overprotection or only protection, but in the end it is reframing too.
It seems questionable to me how that would make female players make more comfortable at a table or gaming, having someone patronizing them.
If it happens to be the case that this game would be more attractive to women in women only gaming groups (sexual preferences set aside, for a reason of case study) it says something about the frame of that women, which would be interesting, but actually to expect because traditional socialization is a strong framer.
Saumari i think i see partyl where you are coming from. I spend some time in asia too and have a lot of contact with asian people, japanese too. They taught me many lessons of being excluded. I would be cautious relating such experiences with women topics though and with the feminism statements too, this is a tricky territory and there are so many traps it´s difficult even for professors of those subjects to avoid them. I can say this because i study sociology.
It is also really a different topic and brings a lot of other difficulties along.
Probably this thread is much more on topic as most others on this forum after ten pages! There were two good suggestions on topic so far, the rest was more like common places and good behaviour to me. I´m still waiting for some women to jump up and speak their heart and make more good suggestions, that would be awesome.
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Can we drop 'white' from the 'white men' in this discussion. When it come to this topic race, relgion, etc. does not really factor in. It is Male Privilage(though I don't think this word is accurate I will use in the context it has been used in this thread). I mean the great thing about this game is I have played with every race, relgion and ethnicity. Yes woman have always been absent for the gaming tables and we do need to change that.
While I can't say I have ever been directly responsible for a women being made uncomfortable at the gaming store...I have seen it and if able usualy defend her if neccessary. Or speak sharply to the jerk.
I was born with brain damage...it greatly effect my speech. So I do know how it is like to be the targets of bullies, to be picked on, and not get a chance at a job because my speech impediment makes me seem stupid or slow, to be talked over constantly and ignored. And this did not stop at HS, or College or beyond. I am not saying this to say "but my life sucks as much as yours, go away"...I am saying to say I completely empathize with what women...or any minority groups goes though having similair experiences.
Three things I have learned from my experiences.
1) Judge the invidual not the group....race, relgion, culture, gender, sexual orientation really does not make a person who they are.
2) I found myself overreacting to things...because I was assuming insult where there was not. People who have been at the bottom of society seem to think the worst of any situration. So I learned to relax ands better read the situration.
3) Learn to laugh at myself. Not every joke at you is meant to be hostile or to put you down. My family constantly tease each other...it can a sign of affection and comradery.
So what I am saying is yes...Men need to change alot, but I think women need to look in mirror also and make some changes and be more tolerant.
Thank you Jessica for all your input and advice on this issue. As a guy, it made me reflect on HOW I play Pathfinder.
I've been playing for the past 2 years with 5 others guys. Themselves playing PnP games for the past 10 years.
As a roleplayer, I love telling intricate and fascinating stories. Half of my PCs are female characters and my all guys group were a bit startled by this. They would not dare interacting with my female PCs the same way they behave with NPCs female characters (ALWAYS a love interest). In RotRL, the first AP I played, a player had a douchy paladin who would spend his gold on wenches and another player developing an stereotypical macho romance relationship with a NPC witch in our party. I knew that I had joined a group where female characters would not be portrayed fairly.
They came a long way since though. I became a GM a year ago and one of those players played for the first time in his life a female PC. He did feel weird when one male NPC flirted with his female character. Nothing inappropriate though. Hopefully he realized how he was acting when he was roleplaying a male PC.
A must also admit that I do like my characters (male and female) flawed in edgy settings so I am concerned about how a woman would feel at my table.
Perykin, my halfing female PC for CotCT, in her younger years was a slave to a male tiefling who eventally sexually abused her. That is why she went away and did the AP. She developped a strong hatred towards abusive male characters, and that played a big part in the first volume with Gaedren Lamm. She later developped a female romance with Laori Vaus because she let herself be more vulnerable with a female character.
Yig, my female half-orc PC from Serpent Skulls was raised by a prostitute (a nice Varisian girl who was raped by an Orc, was then shunned by her community and had her unwanted baby in a brothel of Calistria in the Shackles.) Yig wasn't raised surrounded by love. Being overweight and ugly, she didn't find a decent partner either as an adult.
Then there is Keziah, my female changeling witch PC from Carrion Crown. She has schizophrenia (hags wanting to steal her powers) and became insane due to a lovecraftian monster.
I could go on and talk about the female NPCs I roleplay as a GM in my Council of Thieves campaign, but there are too many examples. I do try to make sure that there are strong independant female characters though.
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Can we drop 'white' from the 'white men' in this discussion. When it come to this topic race, relgion, etc. does not really factor in. It is Male Privilage(though I don't think this word is accurate I will use in the context it has been used in this thread). I mean the great thing about this game is I have played with every race, relgion and ethnicity. Yes woman have always been absent for the gaming tables and we do need to change that.
While I can't say I have ever been directly responsible for a women being made uncomfortable at the gaming store...I have seen it and if able usualy defend her if neccessary. Or speak sharply to the jerk.
I was born with brain damage...it greatly effect my speech. So I do know how it is like to be the targets of bullies, to be picked on, and not get a chance at a job because my speech impediment makes me seem stupid or slow, to be talked over constantly and ignored. And this did not stop at HS, or College or beyond. I am not saying this to say "but my life sucks as much as yours, go away"...I am saying to say I completely empathize with what women...or any minority groups goes though having similair experiences.
Three things I have learned from my experiences.
1) Judge the invidual not the group....race, relgion, culture, gender, sexual orientation really does not make a person who they are.
2) I found myself overreacting to things...because I was assuming insult where there was not. People who have been at the bottom of society seem to think the worst of any situration. So I learned to relax ands better read the situration.
3) Learn to laugh at myself. Not every joke at you is meant to be hostile or to put you down. My family constantly tease each other...it can a sign of affection and comradery.
So what I am saying is yes...Men need to change alot, but I think women need to look in mirror also and make some changes and be more tolerant.
That's excellent advice John, and I agree. If both men and women can treat each other as individuals, try not to over-react or assume malicious intent where none was meant, and laugh at teasing and joking rather than taking offense, many of the interpersonal problems would be improved at the gaming table.
Hayato Ken, I didn't really feel excluded in Japan, I made good friends with many of the people there. I remember at one of the farewell parties as I was leaving after 2 years there one Japanese woman hugged me and said "You've become such a good friend, I don't even think of you as an American anymore, you are Japanese to me." Some people might have actually taken offense at that, but I didn't, I knew she meant it as a compliment and a term of endearment and inclusiveness. Like John suggested, I laughed and told her I would really miss her too and that she was a great friend.
Similarly, if some male gamers happen to say "we don't even think of you as a woman anymore, you're just one of the guys", take that as a compliment, not an insult. And the same could be said for many other perhaps less than smooth attempts at expressing friendship. Remember that some guys may be as freaked out by your presence as you are by them, and things may not always come out right.
Guys can we please focus on getting more women into gaming, GMing in particular.
There is a whole thread in the off topic area devoted to Gender politics...
If you guys diverted your energy from arguing the point to comming up with ideas... this thread would be full of win instead of whine.
Maybe we can change the name of the thread to how do we get more women into gaming.
GMing is a hard and often thankless task. It is hard to convince people to take up the role... I assume it would be kinda scary rolling up to a big hall full of hairy dudes that look like me.
I don’t have a problem with some extra incentives to motivate women to take up the role... Maybe a boon or a T-Shirt.
I have had few female GMs and I want to see more.
For the mentoring you will need to start promoting it soon, as well intentioned as it was the Superstar plea was too short notice.
I am not sure how to introduce the mentoring program for male heavy regions where there may be one or two or no female GMs...
Maybe the Venture Captains can keep an eye out for people who may be interested and ask and put them in contact with female GMs from other regions.
I work for an organisation that has won awards for its devotion to Diversity in the workplace. This year they are setting up a Unity scheme to help our GLBT staff to feel that they can be themselves in the workplace.
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Thank you Jessica for all your input and advice on this issue. As a guy, it made me reflect on HOW I play Pathfinder.
I've been playing for the past 2 years with 5 others guys. Themselves playing PnP games for the past 10 years.
As a roleplayer, I love telling intricate and fascinating stories. Half of my PCs are female characters and my all guys group were a bit startled by this. They would not dare interacting with my female PCs the same way they behave with NPCs female characters (ALWAYS a love interest). In RotRL, the first AP I played, a player had a douchy paladin who would spend his gold on wenches and another player developing an stereotypical macho romance relationship with a NPC witch in our party. I knew that I had joined a group where female characters would not be portrayed fairly.
They came a long way since though. I became a GM a year ago and one of those players played for the first time in his life a female PC. He did feel weird when one male NPC flirted with his female character. Nothing inappropriate though. Hopefully he realized how he was acting when he was roleplaying a male PC.
A must also admit that I do like my characters (male and female) flawed in edgy settings so I am concerned about how a woman would feel at my table.
Perykin, my halfing female PC for CotCT, in her younger years was a slave to a male tiefling who eventally sexually abused her. That is why she went away and did the AP. She developped a strong hatred towards abusive male characters, and that played a big part in the first volume with Gaedren Lamm. She later developped a female romance with Laori Vaus because she let herself be more vulnerable with a female character.
Yig, my female half-orc PC from Serpent Skulls was raised by a prostitute (a nice Varisian girl who was raped by an Orc, was then shunned by her community and had her unwanted baby in a brothel of Calistria in the Shackles.) Yig wasn't raised surrounded by love. Being overweight and ugly, she didn't find a decent partner either as an...
I'm playing in 2 Pathfinder games right now. In one my character is a black female Half-Elf Wood Oracle from M'Wangi. In the other my character is an Arabic male Halfling Magus. My gaming group tends to play a wide variety of character races, both genders, and different sexualities. Some of my most memorable characters have been female.
I don't think that is a good way to get them. If I heard about a gaming event that was literally trolling for women to the point of bribing them with stuff, I would stay far, far away.I don’t have a problem with some extra incentives to motivate women to take up the role... Maybe a boon or a T-Shirt.
I have had few female GMs and I want to see more.
Good point...
I am trying to think of ways to overcome the advantage that new male GMs have in that all/most of their colleagues are male.
That and I am an incentive driven person. So that is where my brain goes first.
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Guys can we please focus on getting more women into gaming, GMing in particular.
There is a whole thread in the off topic area devoted to Gender politics...
If you guys diverted your energy from arguing the point to comming up with ideas... this thread would be full of win instead of whine.
Maybe we can change the name of the thread to how do we get more women into gaming.
GMing is a hard and often thankless task. It is hard to convince people to take up the role... I assume it would be kinda scary rolling up to a big hall full of hairy dudes that look like me.
I don’t have a problem with some extra incentives to motivate women to take up the role... Maybe a boon or a T-Shirt.
I have had few female GMs and I want to see more.
For the mentoring you will need to start promoting it soon, as well intentioned as it was the Superstar plea was too short notice.
I am not sure how to introduce the mentoring program for male heavy regions where there may be one or two or no female GMs...
Maybe the Venture Captains can keep an eye out for people who may be interested and ask and put them in contact with female GMs from other regions.
I work for an organisation that has won awards for its devotion to Diversity in the workplace. This year they are setting up a Unity scheme to help our GLBT staff to feel that they can be themselves in the workplace.
The advice I'd give a female GM would be no different than I'd give a male one.
* Make sure you have fun too. GMing should be enjoyable, not a burden that you bear so the players can have fun. It's usually very noticable when the GM is enjoying themself or not.
* Know the rules as much as possible, but be willing to make a judgement call or ask someone to look up a rule if needed.
* Have a basic plot and idea of where it's going but be able to adapt it to the players actions.
* Don't let players run ruff-shod over you, but also don't act like a tyrant or go mad with power. If you feel a player got away with some combo or action in the last session that you want to make sure doesn't happen again, at the start of the next session explain how that will be ruled from now on, or discuss it by emails between sessions.
* Try to make NPCs and situations dramatic and memorable. If you can, ham it up a bit and do different voices for important characters. Have fun with it!
* While you are playing the bad guys, as well as all other NPCs, you shouldn't have an adversarial attitude toward the players, nor treat them as a captive audience. You are there to have fun together, not to "beat them" and not to tell them your epic story on a railroad.
That's what I'd tell any GM. After a session under their belt, I'd get back together with them and say "Here's what you did well, here's a few things you might try..."
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I don't think that is a good way to get them. If I heard about a gaming event that was literally trolling for women to the point of bribing them with stuff, I would stay far, far away.I don’t have a problem with some extra incentives to motivate women to take up the role... Maybe a boon or a T-Shirt.
I have had few female GMs and I want to see more.
Good point...
I am trying to think of ways to overcome the advantage that new male GMs have in that all/most of their colleagues are male.
That and I am an incentive driven person. So that is where my brain goes first.
They only have "an advantage" if they view people by their group identifiers. If they view everyone as individuals, DMing a new group, whatever their racial or gender make-up, shouldn't really make much of a difference. Learning the quirks and idiosyncrasies, likes, and dislikes of Bill and Ron as players shouldn't be any different than Mary and Sarah.
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Stuff
Cool we are heading in the right direction.
This is not about what Female GMs need to know.
It’s getting more women to GM and be visible as GMs.
Right now women are not visible enough in the hobby. When you go to PFS who do you see in the ultimate position of authority..... Dudes, nice dudes, fun, welcoming excellent dudes.
I want to see just as many Women, nice women, fun, welcoming, excellent women.
They only have "an advantage" if they view people by their group identifiers. If they view everyone as individuals, DMing a new group, whatever their racial or gender make-up, shouldn't really make much of a difference. Learning the quirks and idiosyncrasies, likes, and dislikes of Bill and Ron as players shouldn't be any different than Mary and Sarah.I don't think that is a good way to get them. If I heard about a gaming event that was literally trolling for women to the point of bribing them with stuff, I would stay far, far away.I don’t have a problem with some extra incentives to motivate women to take up the role... Maybe a boon or a T-Shirt.
I have had few female GMs and I want to see more.
Good point...
I am trying to think of ways to overcome the advantage that new male GMs have in that all/most of their colleagues are male.
That and I am an incentive driven person. So that is where my brain goes first.
That is the ideal and ideal world does not exist....
So let’s work on real world and work to improve real world to make it become ideal world.
Sometimes you have to make some sacrifices, sometimes you have to bight your tongue, and as my father says sometimes you just have to "cop it sweet".
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Incentives not my best idea.
Whats a SIG group....?
I think PFS GMs are the key.... they Paizo's show room, its where we see the game working, at Cons and game shops.
If new people were able to see a 50/50 split in the gender of people running tables it would go a long way to make making it more inclusive.
This Saturday, today, I'll be engaging in some good 'ol white male privilege. I'll be watching two women top the card for a UFC event between Linda Rousey and Liz Carmouche, an openly gay MMA fighter with my privileged straight white male gaming friends a year after the head of UFC said there would never be a female UFC fight and now it tops the card for a premier event.
Then on Sunday, I'll indulge in a bit more white male privilege by watching Danica Patrick race in the Daytona 500, and pulling for her the entire way. Along with my privileged straight white male friends, and their significant others and children.
Also in attendance will be a good friend of mine and his boyfriend, along with a sprinkling of people of various races and nationalities. Some who've never watched and MMA fight, or Auto Racing. I hope I can explain the nuances of drafting, tire wear, fuel management and wind well enough to make turning left entertaining.
Once Monday rolls back around, I'll get back to doing my day job, making sure I keep up the patriarchy.
In all seriousness. The advice to a female GM is like any other, which is what the others have stated. This stuff isn't that complicated, it's shockingly like being a good male GM. In the end it's about being a decent and somewhat empathetic person. We have one female in our group, I wish it was more however. The idea of outreach to female players by having a panel at cons and such is a good idea, some of the other things Wrath brought up are real good ideas that shouldn't go unnoticed. Any more than that? In my little corner of the world, I feel comfortable with our current standing, my current attitude, etc. Our group is happy to have anybody who wants to play when we have an open slot available. I'd be all for an all-girl like, beginner box event or something so long as there was an all-guy beginner box event.
If you want more than that from us, I don't think it is going to happen in all honesty.
Stuff.
Can we just put the Privilege thing to rest... it’s not the issue; it is an issue but not the issue. If you want to talk about it go to the Off topic thread.
Second both you and Sam are keen to give advice on how women should run a game... That is not the issue either.
The issue is when you walk into a game shop and there is a beginner box bash what do you see?
You see mostly men, young men, and boys. These men are good men, cool great people and that is fine.
So there are all male beginner box bashes happening all the time.
Cost benefit time... how do you get more money into a hobby how do you keep it alive... You grow its player base...There is 51% of the planets population not being exploited (not the best word) effectively at this time. How do you make use of this resource/market... You work out ways to make it appealing for that 51%.
Nobody is taking anything away from you and in the end you gain....
You gain more product and the talent pool becomes larger... We have Lisa, Lilith, Judy and all the other cool staff at Paizo. Imagine how many more women game Devs and Freelancers and cartographers that are out there but dont know it yet.
Think of this as an investment in the hobby.... a kick-starter.
EDIT: rewrote a paragraph I didnt like.
Nobody is taking anything away from you and in the end you gain....
You gain more product and the talent pool becomes larger... We have Lisa, Lilith, Judy and all the other cool staff at Paizo. Imagine how many more women game Devs and Freelancers and cartographers that are out there but dont know it yet.
Think of this as an investment in the hobby.... a kick-starter.
I'm not taking about taking anything away from anybody. The optics of gender specific gaming for only half feels wrong to me. Just like a boys only thing feels wrong to me.
If somebody want to do it as a private venture, and create girl only gamer groups that all played together without men I'd feel kinda sad because we'd be missing out on the coolness and creativity that would come from a balanced group.
That said I don't have some sort of super strong objection to it. Private clubs can decide to do what they want to do. When it comes to something corporate backed by Paizo, I wouldn't be comfortable with the same thing. There is an important nuance there.
I wouldn't be opposed to outreach and trying to drum up interest and get women interested. But offering boons, or specific female or even male only benefits? That just feels wrong. I'd feel wrong for accepting them, even if given to me. All I can say.
Not like I am frothing at the mouth with pitchforks and torches at the idea of it. I hope the nuance in why it makes me uncomfortable gets across.
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Well, Paizo seems to have had some success making products for people, instead of men or women.
I disagree to female gamer specific products. Should they all be pink? The supposedly different mindsets of men and women come mostly from socialization which is direct subject to the culture inherent sexism.
As it should be