Redundant feats and Fighter retraining


Rules Questions


If I took, for example, Master of Many Styles and Unarmed Fighter levels to get fast completion on a style tree, I'd get Improved Unarmed Strike from each one. Does this mean I have two Improved Unarmed Strike feats? If so, can I use Fighter's ability to re-train feats every 4 levels to swap out the redundant one?


No.

Sovereign Court

The Fighter's ability to retrain feats is only applicable towards their selection of bonus combat feats. Unarmed Fighter actually gives up the bonus feat at first level for an ability called Unarmed Style.

Unarmed Style is actually what gets you the style feat as well so it isn't something you want to give up. ;)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Yes, you can use the fIGHTER retrain to retrain the extra feat. You can also use it to untrain armor and shield profs you aren't going to use, if you want to.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

This is the language of the Unarmed FIghter:

At 1st level, a unarmed fighter gains the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and any single style feat as a bonus feat. The unarmed fighter need not meet all the prerequisites of the style feat he chooses, but style feats that grant additional uses of the Elemental Fist feat cannot be taken until the unarmed fighter has that feat.

Note it replaces the level 1 Fighter bonus feat, as well. Make your judgement from there. SOme will argue that because it doesn't say bonus feats, the one and not the other is a bonus feat, which flies completely in the face of it being an extra feat, which is a bonus feat. Meh. By the same language that says their martial weapon and armor profs are fighter bonus feats, the IUS is, too.

Also note that there's nothing in the fighter language that restricts the untrain to FIGHTER bonus feats...it just says bonus feats, and monks gain bonus feats, too. IUS is a bonus feat for monks, no?

==Aelryinth


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
MacGurcules wrote:
Okay, so the armor proficiencies aren't actually feats. How about using the fighter class feature to swap bonus feats granted by other classes? That's still legit, right?
I'd allow it. Though the classes are written in the context of just referring to that class, there are elements of permissive language in other parts of the game that allow for some weird crossovers like that. For example, the mnemonic enhancer spell allows you to prepare additional spells, but doesn't say they have to be wizard spells...

So SKR would allow it. Make of that what you want.


Aelryinth wrote:
Yes, you can use the fIGHTER retrain to retrain the extra feat. You can also use it to untrain armor and shield profs you aren't going to use, if you want to.

I dont think this is correct

Under Fighter's Bonus Feats wrote:
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.

I take this to mean that you can only swap out the feats your take with this class feature.


SKR gave the clarification that fighter retraining includes any bonus feats, not limited to fighter bonus feats. The real question is whether the IUS from Unarmed Fighter and the IUS from MoMS are redundant. Do I actually have two copies of the same feat? Logic dictates that I do since it's just the effect of the feat that doesn't stack unless explicitly stated to do so so I'd venture to say, "yes" unless someone can bring to light some contradicting point or counter-example; preferably something from an official source.


Kazaan wrote:
SKR gave the clarification that fighter retraining includes any bonus feats, not limited to fighter bonus feats.

He said he would allow it, not that it works that way. Same way JJ gives the way he runs things in his home games. I dont think it would be allowed in PFS but you would have to check with your GM.

I personally dont have a problem with people swapping out feats and class abilities when multi classing gives you the same feat or ability from each. But worded like this, at levels 4,8,12,16,20 fighters could just swap out some random Martial weapon prof they arnt using for a feat they want. I think its abusing the system and not RAI.

just my 2cp


you are forgetting one thing about the retraining.
The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability.

Since all style feats require improved unarmed strike you cannot trade out this feat. The fact that you have it from another class irrelevant.

Also to consider is that you do not actually gain the feat twice. Feats unless specified in the description cannot be taken twice. Nowhere in improved unarmed strike does it say you can take it twice so you do not gain the second feat.

As far as trading out your armor and weapon proficiencies that is also not allowed. Those are class abilities not feats. The feats are there so a class that does not have the class ability can gain them.


You don't "take" IUS as a bonus feats; it's "given" to you automatically. I agree with the notion that you can't trade out class weapon and armour prof and SKR already discounted that option so that's a non-issue. Furthermore, Unarmed Fighter gains a style feat without having to meet any prerequisites. So IUS is not used as a prereq for his style feat. I also don't see a clause anywhere that states you can't have copies of the same feat. There are clauses stating what kinds of bonuses do and don't stack, but nothing prohibiting you from taking a redundant feat with no cumulative benefit. Lastly, considering that even after losing a prereq, you still have the feat but just can't use it until you re-fulfill the prereqs, it stands to reason that having redundant feats is just as permissible; you have two copies of the same feat, though you get no added benefit. No counter-example seems to stand up so far so I think I'm gonna call it on this one that it's allowed by default, barring new information.

Sovereign Court

Well we're just applying that to ANY bonus feat the fighter has?

So a Half-Elf fighter can swap his Skill Focus every 4 levels, or a human his human bonus feat? That doesn't sound right to me personally...

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