Goblin Squad Member
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Grumpy Mel,
We can but hope that your assumption about "notorious villains", though likely true, will prove to be wrong. :)
As well....and honestly in some facets, I don't overly blame the meta-gaming. If systems don't exist to accomplish certain things in-game, then it really doesn't leave them alot of choice...if they want to be villians of a certain stripe...although I do hope that at least the RP-ers among them would make some attempt to RP out some of the logical ramifications of said things (e.g. clandestine meetings between characters in some shadowy corner somewhere to exchange information)
No Guys, I was not trolling. I am quite serious.
I just completely disagree that acting in the manner that you guys are describing will, in ANY way, result in, and I quote, "Memorable evil characters".
I have several MMO players in my group and I mentioned this to them. Their response was, "In an MMO, any individual player would be lucky to remember what he got off the corpse of the guy he killed five minutes ago, much less his name. More importantly, most players simply will not care. The only memorable villians in an MMO are the ones that the game itself controls. As they get cool cut scenes and the like."
For me, this couldn't be further from the truth. STORYTIME! (TL;DR at bottom)
For me, EQ is the MMO that made the most lasting impression (even over WoW, despite playing it for a longer period of time). I don't remember much of the GM-created holiday events or guild events. I don't remember how I got my Flowing Black Silk Sash (I think I camped Najena for weeks?), I don't remember any bosses.
The only things I remember with any clarity are some old PvP hotspots of mine and a few specific PvP encounters. Some of them were even matches, some of them I was grossly outmatched.
I remember killing players that waltzed onto the sands of Ro thinking they could camp *my* dervish camps (it was common courtesy to ask which mobs were being camped when entering a zone). Actually, this is the biggest reason I went to a PvP server in EQ: on the 'blue' (PvE) servers, the PvE griefing was terrible. People would just run in and start killing your mobs and kill steal, just because they had a higher-damage nuke or whatever. On the PvP server, I could fight for what was mine.
I remember using the typical slow-swing-timer 2-handed weapon PvP strategy of 'jousting' on my gnome Shadowknight in the caves outside of the Bazaar on Luclin. One time, a troll Shadowknight killed me while I had a bunch of mosquito-like mobs on me. I died. I yoinked my corpse while he was...
I feel much the same way as you do Kakafika. My most memorable experiences in MMOs were from more difficult games, older games that most people would classify as "too hardcore". Looking back they were, often losing all my gear because I died in a place I could never reach again. I feel that's partly the reason GW is making the type of game they re making, because they recognize that feeling of remembering those old games that really kicked your ass, but you had a blast at the same time <g>. I remember my ranger getting the kill shot on that Pegasis in West Commons? (Might not have been WC) but he got the cloak that cast levitation :). I also recall days spent with my Ilksar Monk killing thes pirates so I could become un-KOS in Freeport. Same character got way lucky and bagged the Cyclops in the Oasis, getting a pair of Jboots which cast SOW, loved those boots! My Ranger even camped that Nec that dropped a +mana black stone that he traded for two Yak's (curved short swords with good +'s), that took a couple of days I recall. Even thou I played Wow for longer, I can't recall any moments from that game that left such an impression on me.
Can't wait to get into PFO! I've a strong feeling that it will bring back fun times like I used to experience way back in the 1990's.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If SOE would just update the art and graphics and remove those excessive teleports EQ would still be fun to play.
I mean it isn't supposed to be about the graphics: Dragonrealms is still fun to play and it is text based. But Text has my imagination to fuel it but EQ looks... really bad now... after getting used to games like GW2 and TSW.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, I tried playing EQ again a few years ago... it just wasn't the same. Graphics are godawful and it's missing some of the UI conveniences that are standard in modern MMOs.
That's also why I'm here. EQ won't ever play the same as it did years ago, but a new game may harness the spirit behind the game. I think PFO will get pretty close, even if the PvP is restricted. The details of the flagging system made me much less concerned; I'm glad I stuck to my crowdforger pledge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On a side note: I am purchasing Way of the Wicked to RUN sometime next year. I am currently RUNNING Kingmaker. I have not PLAYED in more than a decade. Just correcting Jimini's assumptions there.
My apologies. I had seen you post in the WotW forums. of which I lurk in, and had assumed you played that AP.
To counter the points of your players, in that no eveil character are memorable. Ask them if they know about the assassination of Lord Britsh or any of the massive heists in EVE. These are huge world changing events that are famous more than a decade later. Besides, if the 'good' side do their job properly, no evil people will be famous at all :)
Another thought - in the MUDs I plated a decade or so ago, by far the most memorable characters were those beacons of light (paladins and clerics mainly) that rallied the people against the incurions of evil. But the major evil characters (fighters and clercs mainly) that actually drove the plot and rallied the darker souls together, were just as memorable, if not more. It's all about how they are played and how they interact with the community.
The EQ people are working on some super secret project called EQ Next. Little is known about it other then it's supposed to be a sandbox. Brad McQuaid isn't involved that I'm aware of. (He was the guy who came up with EQ originally. He also made Vanguard)
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of the real tricks for villains will be to operate in society without being detected. In games without actual alignments, you can simply act good or neutral, go about your business, and perform your evil acts while no one is looking. In PFO, there will be several much larger hurdles to overcome, even though it has been said that alignment, unlike reputation, will not be worn on your sleeve.
1. Certain spells will detect your alignment.
2. Certain alignments may not be able to enter a settlement, and certainly a starter town, without being spotted - most likely by NPC guards.
Certainly, the classic evil lord types will not worry about either of these - they will reside in their obviously evil locales and only visit good settlements with their armies as they raze it to the ground. However, there will be those who wish to play a far more subtle evil, and will, in this setting, need to find ways to remain undetected.
True, you could try stealthing past such obstacles, but if you're passing yourself off as a law abiding citizen, people are going to already distrust you for needing to sneak around. The best mastermind villains, at least in my opinion, are those who can pass themselves off, can live among you, even be pillars of the community while pulling the strings of the darkest elements in society and leaving that society none the wiser.
So since PFO is loosely based on the tabletop game, here is where I must ask the Pathfinder players for options. In Pathfinder, are there ways to mask alignment? This goes beyond simply covering up your identity - disguise kits, illusion spells, even polymorph - since these still leave your alignment visible to those with the right abilities. Is there in the tabletop, and thereby hopefully in PFO, some spell or magic item that conceals a person's alignment?
If not, role-playing evil will be even more difficult and limited to evil cities, evil settlements, and the open road.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is there in the tabletop, and thereby hopefully in PFO, some spell or magic item that conceals a person's alignment?
If not, role-playing evil will be even more difficult and limited to evil cities, evil settlements, and the open road.
From what I hear, there is a Cleric spell to hide alignment.
Several of us had a "Meet and Greet" sponsored by The UnNamed Company, where the discussion did go to the idea of how disguise might work. We will be starting perhaps two new threads involving some suggestions that came out of that meeting.
We will also be sponsoring future Meet and Greets open to all PFO community members, but particularly to Chaotics (CG, CN, CE). These meetings will be advertised on The UnNamed Company's thread here, but I will also create a PM list for those interested in receiving more direct notice.
2. Certain alignments may not be able to enter a settlement, and certainly a starter town, without being spotted - most likely by NPC guards.
I really really hope NPCs will NOT auto-detect alignment! Given that players have to take some sort of action to see another's alignment, it just doesn't seem right that an NPC will just know your alignment at a distance and be able to attack you. If a player does something to warrant attack then sure. If its unavoidable that NPCs know your alignment, I would urge the Devs to create a form of disguise like has been mentioned in several threads allowing a player to mask their alignment and physical features.
True, you could try stealthing past such obstacles, but if you're passing yourself off as a law abiding citizen, people are going to already distrust you for needing to sneak around. The best mastermind villains, at least in my opinion, are those who can pass themselves off, can live among you, even be pillars of the community while pulling the strings of the darkest elements in society and leaving that society none the wiser.
If they do allow NPCs to automatically know a players alignment, I hope the Devs would consider creating a "back door" which would allow a player to sneak into a settlement and have limited access, perhaps to the "seedier" side of town. IIRC EQ had such an access to Freeport. I recall sneaking into town with my Monk. I could only access a small part of town but recall an Inn and some vendors that were available. At least have the disguise option available if nothing else.
Not a lot of experience with MMO's but played Neverwinter Nights quite a bit.
In regards to memorable characters on most of the servers I was on high level characters were well known.
As for enhancing natural spawns. That was a problem there but mostly because spawns were triggered based on character level. A high level character moving quickly through a map could spawn some very lethal encounters for lower level characters. It wasn't considered "griefing" but it was considered good form to clean up our spawns. Of course they weren't persistent so not sure how this will work out here. Depend a lot on how NPC's are generated and how they grow.
In PFO NPC spawns within a hex will be sized according to the hexes level. The Devs have also introduced what they call escalations within a hex, if you want to check that out take a look at this Video
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Goblin Squad Member
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Valandur,
But how seedy can a good aligned settlement get? By having to announce your settlement's alignment, you lock in a certain range of acceptable business, residents, etc. Yes, it can apparently slide with the actions of it's player residents, but until it slides to the seedier side and thus allows for seedier businesses, residents, etc., you're backdoor doesn't provide much opportunity.
I'm willing to bet that the city you're describing had no predetermined, game mechanic driven alignment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So since PFO is loosely based on the tabletop game, here is where I must ask the Pathfinder players for options. In Pathfinder, are there ways to mask alignment?
There are several spells that can do this: Mind Blank, Nondetection or Undetectable Alignment.
Useful spells to get cast on a ring and made permanent :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Hobs
I envision a settlement having neighborhoods, that might lean in one step or another, but still over all remain attached to the central "official" settlement alignment.
Example: A Chaotic Neutral settlement could have a neighborhood that is CE and another, probably other side of town, that would be CG.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bluddwolf,
But given that most settlement managers won't want their settlement alignment sliding too far afield, nor will they be desirous of a back door that lets CE invaders sneak past the front door guards and fortifications, I doubt that very many will want such a back door in their settlement.
To your point, I'm glad that a range of alignments will be possible for settlement members. I'm inclined not to have alignment restrictions at all, at least in something as large as a kingdom, but that's just me. If alignment isn't going to be very easily determined, can be masked by certain spells, and if I don't break any of the settlement laws, no one should be able to tell that my alignment doesn't match that of the settlement I live in. If you act like the herd, the sheep shouldn't get edgy.
Jiminy,
Though they may allow alignment masking spells with short timers, after putting all this work into alignment systems and mechanics, I doubt devs are going to allow for permanent alignment masking items. Such items would become the norm, we would all have undetectable alignments, and it would be the same as if no one had alignments to begin with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Could you have a settlement taken over from within by a group of settlement members who all decided together that their alignments should change? What if you had a member, who deciding to turn from good to evil, started spreading his discontent with the settlement leadership. If he gained enough followers, could they quickly drop the settlement's alignment by their evil actions? Or, say in a true democracy, could they outright overthrow the leadership by strength of numbers and plunge the settlement into darkness?
Though we've been promised that alignment sliding will require incremental steps caused by more than one action, I wonder how quickly you will be able to shift your "listed" alignment if you wish to shift it. I agree, for the safety of those who don't desire the shift, it should take time, but if you do, how fast can it happen? How can the game hope to quantify that instant when the once decent man cracks and becomes someone capable of darker deeds than ever his original alignment would suggest?
Of course, to avoid the problems that instant alignment switching might cause, alignment change needs to remain incremental. However, for the scenario in my first paragraph, the players simply wouldn't do anything evil to harm their good status until they were ready to reveal themselves, like the regular guy living next door before he commits his first heinous act.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am planning on being very RP heavy in my evil deeds in hopes of gaining a bit of a reputation around the land.
As a druid of Lamashtu, I plan to stalk my prey, haunt them with dark poems and chants devoted to the great mother as I approach. And if they do not offer a kind donation to the raising of the church of Lamashtu. He will have his fun with them.
I even have a thing I intend to do once their dead. But I shall keep that part to myself! It is my trade mark and you can think of your own, thank you very much!
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Goblin Squad Member
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This thread has me thinking, how should I play my character and would the perception of him be that he is evil.
I have a character concept, that if I'm forced to describe him in alignment terms I would say he is planned to be Chaotic Neutral.
His motivations are founded in greed, being respected for his craft, and being a man of his word. He rationalizes his robbing others, by pointing a finger to those in positions of power (Politicians, Wealty Merchants, Land Owners, etc) as being bigger thieves than he could ever be. He speaks as though he is a "Man for the Little Guy", but he keeps what he steals for himself and his company of fellow bandits. He is honorable in his contracts, because that is the path to make more gold. He does not slaughter a merchant caravan, because that inhibits future opportunities to rob him again. All of his actions, his plans and schemes, are all motivated by an insatiable drive to acquire more gold. He freely admits there is no end game for his greed, no amount will ever be enough and yet there is nothing that he can explain he wants or needs vast wealth for.
His motivations or desires for the UnNamed Company are a bit more well known to him. He wants his company to be, above all else, respected for what they do. There is a certain type of prestige that comes with being the best at what you do, even if that is a criminal act. The goal is for the UnNamed Company to be known throughout the River Kingdoms as a bandit company that is tactically proficient, sufficiently forceful, and equally feared and inspiring. However, like Bluddwolf himself, the company does believe that at the end if the day, "It's all about the Gold!"
So the question is, does greed constitute a sufficient trait to be considered "Evil"? Or is being a thief or a bandit, driven by greed, just a firm of escapism from an otherwise mundane existence of a commoner?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So since PFO is loosely based on the tabletop game, here is where I must ask the Pathfinder players for options. In Pathfinder, are there ways to mask alignment? This goes beyond simply covering up your identity - disguise kits, illusion spells, even polymorph - since these still leave your alignment visible to those with the right abilities. Is there in the tabletop, and thereby hopefully in PFO, some spell or magic item that conceals a person's alignment?
Just for reference sake, here is a link to the official Pathfinder RPG Reference Document (PRD). The rules are broken down by rulebook, so in PFO's case focusing more or less on the Core book will be the way to go.
From my experience you'd easily catch evil characters with our without a alignment system. Even then I have often caught people in hypocritical ideals and behavior, even though they had a good alignment.
Sadly in the end of the day, the man behind the Paladin is often greedy and selfish. Rarely living up to the role IC or OOC he likes to potray. In fact in most of my experience, good players often tell tale of good deeds. But outside of those tails, refuse to as much lend a penny to a friend in need.
Likewise evil characters often try to pull off deception with the subtly of a brick to the face.
Not of course saying it can't be done. Heck, back in wow, I managed to trick people into thinking my warlock was a okay guy, with good intentions. Right up to the point where I stabbed them in the back.
I also did something similar in SWTOR where they could see I was dark side, but still my weave of lies was enough to convince them and my logic had them pausing to consider.
in the end it all comes down to the individual player, not the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Elena,
Taking your thoughts one step further, you may even have people who use their listed alignment as a total cover. They aren't being hypocritical (choosing good aligned character classes but playing mean spirited), but actually using the game mechanic of choosing to be good as a cover for their more sinister actions. I'm not sure how you would validate this in a RP sense when a detect evil spell fails to register you as evil because you currently "read" as Chaotic Good, but I'm sure there will be those who find a way..."My evil god has clouded your detection."
This is an aspect of the alignment system that the game cannot track, someone gaming the alignment system, or even RP'ing a deceptive character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I always thought people who relied on alignment was a bit to simple for my taste. We usually have it as a house rule that as long as your not murdering kittens for giggles or you can justify your actions, your free to do what you want.
No one is so simple as the alignment systems.
We have moods shifts, we have passions, we have believes, we are capable of plans years ahead of us and we are prone to sudden acts of rage and passion without much forethought.
Heck, checking in on any thread discussing a canon characters alignment and you'll see that. I've pretty much heard it all from Arthas being lawful evil from the start, to Darth Vader being lawful good, youngling mass murdering included.
Heck I've had more than a few debates saying Lamashtu shouldn't be chaotic evil, but were getting off topic now.
I actually got a example of what you talk about hobs.
In SWOTOR I played a light side inquisitor. He was however not lightside out of the goodness of his heart. He did it in turns of favours and personal gain.
Likewise when I play Neverwinters night 2 I always become chaotic good, because so many of the evil choices is so little gain in the long term, you wonder why anyone would choose to do them but the simple minded brutes.