I've been making a new fighter and I noticed something about the rules that confused me.
With the bonus feats, "Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned.". Why would you want to do that?
Is there some good reason for losing a feat to gain a new one, rather than keep the old one AND gain a new one? I must be misreading something, because right now it looks like a rather redundant clause. Or is it that you get a new feat AND get retrain the old one?
Thanks for the clarification!
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One example would be taking Furious Focus at level 1 (when it is generally a better feat than Weapon Focus,) and then swapping it out for Weapon Focus at level 8 (by which point you have iterative attacks and Weapon Focus is better.)
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Cleave is great at level 1. By the time you get to level 8, it's not looking so great anymore. By the time you're level 20, you are in big trouble if Cleave is your go-to attack. Fighters trading feats lets you grab it at level 1, and then trade it out at level 4 to get something better for the rest of your career.
You can also do neat stuff like get multiple feats that require fighter level 4:
1 Power Attack, Cleave
2 Weapon Focus
3 Shield Focus
4 Weapon Specialization, trade Cleave for Shield Specialization
Since both Specialization feats require fighter level 4, this is the only way to grab both of them as soon as possible.
Another example:
Point Blank Master (don't provoke w/ a bow) requires Weapon Specialization, which requires Fighter 4. "Rats," you say, "I only get 1 feat at 4th level and need to take WS first, so I have to endure one more level till 5th before I can shoot people point-blank IN DA FACE!" Not so, my friend! You can re-train one of your stinky old feats and get the feat you deserve, today!
In general, you'll notice a lot of feats cluster around certain BAB/level points. Like at +6, and +11/+12. Retraining can help you to pick up more of the new tier of feats faster than you otherwise could.
I feel that SKR was referring to bonous feats you actually choose, not built in ones like stunning fist or improved unarmed strike. Your mileage may vary.
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Another funny aspect is that those fighter archetypes that give you 2 specific feats instead of 1 free choice at first level? Like the Unbreakable giving you Endurance and Diehard? Those are still called "bonus feats" granted to you by the Fighter class. So they are elligible for swapping out for better feats, which means in the end you net an extra feat over a normal fighter.
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An interesting side perk of the ability is that it doesn't specify that the bonus feats you swap out have to come from your fighter bonus feats. So if you've got a level of Maneuver Master to go along with your Lore Warden, but you don't feel like you're getting mileage out of Stunning Fist, you can swap it for something else according to SKR.
You may only swap out Fighter Bonus Feats, as Bonus Feats are specifically a class feature. You are only allowed to swap out the feats that you got from the class feature: only the ones at level 1, 2, and every even level from then on are eligible to be traded.
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I would consider this the ultimate example:
Human Fighter:
1st - Power Attack
1st - Cleave
1st - Dodge
2nd - Mobility
3rd - Combat Expertise
4th - Spring Attack, retrain Cleave to Whirlwind Attack.
One of the best uses for the re-training ability is that it allows you to take replace feats with new ones that you might not have qualified for at that level - in the example above I'm getting something I normally couldn't have taken until 5th levelat the earliest in a level 1 slot.
One example would be taking Furious Focus at level 1 (when it is generally a better feat than Weapon Focus,)how?
Furious Focus works with any weapon, Weapon Focus only works with one weapon. Level 1 is the time you're most likely to throw down your sword for that fancy magic weapon you find in loot - when you do so, you'd rather have Furious Focus than Weapon Focus.
Furious Focus works with any weapon, Weapon Focus only works with one weapon. Level 1 is the time you're most likely to throw down your sword for that fancy magic weapon you find in loot - when you do so, you'd rather have Furious Focus than Weapon Focus.One example would be taking Furious Focus at level 1 (when it is generally a better feat than Weapon Focus,)how?
That's a fair point... but I never take FF for my full martials since they almost always hit with their first attack anyway. Works nicely for those 3/4 classes though.
Cleave is great at level 1. By the time you get to level 8, it's not looking so great anymore. By the time you're level 20, you are in big trouble if Cleave is your go-to attack.
Cleave itself isn't always useful, but can be handy if you're not a mobile fighter with Rapid Attack or a two-weapon warrior with Doublestrike. It's one of the few ways to make more than a single melee attack when also taking a move action in the round.
It's also a prerequisite for Cleaving Finish, which lets you take an extra attack after reducing an opponent to/below 0 hp. Cleaving Finish and Improved Cleaving Finish are very useful feats for a melee-focused character and a fighter has the feats to take them without seriously hindering other choices.
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An interesting side perk of the ability is that it doesn't specify that the bonus feats you swap out have to come from your fighter bonus feats. So if you've got a level of Maneuver Master to go along with your Lore Warden, but you don't feel like you're getting mileage out of Stunning Fist, you can swap it for something else according to SKR.You may only swap out Fighter Bonus Feats, as Bonus Feats are specifically a class feature. You are only allowed to swap out the feats that you got from the class feature: only the ones at level 1, 2, and every even level from then on are eligible to be traded.But it doesn't say, "At the 4th level you may exchange a feat granted by this class feature." It says you may exchange a bonus feat. The extra feats granted by other classes and archetypes are referred to as bonus feats.
I could see restricting the feature to just fighter bonus feats as a reasonable limitation if you wished to apply it. But as SKR said, the rules are permissive to allow for interesting interactions like that.
I clicked the FAQ button on that SKR post. It would be great if that made it into the FAQ, but "I'd allow it" is hardly a hard and fast clarification.
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That's a fair point... but I never take FF for my full martials since they almost always hit with their first attack anyway. Works nicely for those 3/4 classes though.Furious Focus works with any weapon, Weapon Focus only works with one weapon. Level 1 is the time you're most likely to throw down your sword for that fancy magic weapon you find in loot - when you do so, you'd rather have Furious Focus than Weapon Focus.One example would be taking Furious Focus at level 1 (when it is generally a better feat than Weapon Focus,)how?
Even for a full BAB class, it might prove useful for the first few levels. It basically lets you use a better attack, when you are only getting one anyhow, with any weapon, while getting 2-3 more points of damage on every hit.
And then, as mentioned, as long as you took it as the Fighter Bonus Feat, you can train it out for Weapon Focus, or other useful feat, by the time you have probably settled for your long-term weapon of choice.
So, can we just stop for a minute and recognize that the original poster thought the ability was get a bonus feat OR retrain an old feat, not get a bonus feat AND retrain an old feat, and that's why this thread exists?
It has nothing to do with tips and tricks about feats that are good early and lousy later, it's entirely about someone thinking replacing an old feat also replaces your current bonus feat.
I know it was answered in post two, but let me reiterate that the actual answer is:
The ability to switch out old feats is separate from your ability to take new feats, so you get to switch feats AND get a new one.
Well , considering the original question was answered, the "how to use it best" seems to be the natural evolution of the conversation, I don't really see why you are opposed to the discussion?
Seems kinda silly to bother clogging up a new thread and having everyone jump over to that one when it's hardly derailing the original question, again, that's since the original question has been resolved.
just my 2 cents though