Hey, I just made a grappling monk for RotRL! Here's what I experienced:
Firstly, as far as I am aware the grappling Monk is not overpowered, so you should not need to nerf him beyond the extent of the rules. The other members of the party, for the first ~two books, were 1-shotting most enemies, 2-shotting mini-bosses, and 3/4-shotting the big bad bosses. This sort of stopped happening when the DM would double enemy HP and buff their AC, but not entirely. So: enemies die. Quickly. A character has the ability to interact with them a little before that happens? Good.
It should be important to note that enemies do not need to spend their standard struggling against the grapple check. They can full attack while grappled. Every time I grapple I hope the DM doesn't have them do this, because as a Monk I have... AC problems. The random henchmen now hits me on most any die roll, and take out 1/4 of my health. I tried to get near a boss once. I was unconscious before I could get him grappled.
I mostly read this: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Grapple It says -10 on check to tie up. WIth the +5 circumstance, that nets -5. Yes at this level the monk has a fairly good chance to succeed. But if 2 other party members were attacking the guy, he would already be dead about this time.
Have your boss carry a one-handed weapon and give him quick draw. Congrats, your monk just put himself into perfect full-attack position, and the penalty to attack rolls for being grappled doesn't apply to attacks made against the one grappling you. Also, (un)friendly minions. It's probably pretty easy to get into a flanking position against the guy trying to bear hug your boss, even with said boss himself.
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It will get more pronounced at later levels with greater grapple and rapid grapple. My level 10 group has a tetori with +25 to grapple, more with buffs. Last night my character, a wizard, put stoneskin and fly on the monk and he grappled and pinned a huge red dragon while the rest of the party focused fire. GM was not happy.
However, the monk almost died. The dragon got one full round of attacks on him and whiffed all but one. Any more hits and the monk would have gone down. This was a solo fight. If there had been more enemies the group would have been distracted and this tactic would probably not have panned out.
So add more enemies to encounters, give enemies ranks of escape artist if appropriate, and introduce physical barriers that prevent the monk from reaching the monsters. Give the bosses devasting physical attacks at close range or nasty abilities like poison and energy drain. For casters, always have mirror image or invisibility or fly or any other spell that makes it harder for the monk to lock on.
I would avoid creating houserules to nerf grappling specifically unless you really have to.
...the penalty to attack rolls for being grappled doesn't apply to attacks made against the one grappling you.
Where is this from? As best I can tell, the only attack rolls not affected by being grappled are those made to break the grapple. Admittedly, the penalty is balanced out in most cases by the fact that the person grappling also counts as grappled, with the -4 penalty to Dex. Is that what you mean?
I hadn't considered that the -10 was intended to be skipping the pin step. This passage now has an ambiguous reading to me, I can't really say what the rules as written mean anymore in this case.
As far as the party composition went, there were two main damage dealers at level 3: composite longbow fighter with rapid shot, and two-handed barbarian with power attack. Our cleric, sorcerer, and rogue did stuff normal people do like missing on attack rolls. A few levels later everyone contributes to combat, except the rogue.
I really just don't remember hardly any enemies at those levels taking too much effort to go down. Is this a question of other people doing less? Our cleric didn't realize she had the Murderous Command spell; that could have stolen some of the show.
I was just reading the first chapter, it seems our group accidentally missed the optional boss, Malfeshnekor (who they would fight at level 3 or 4). He looks the monk would be completely useless against him, since he would be under the effect of Blink, and going incorporeal makes any kind of grabbing/pinning/tying ineffective. Against earlier level 3 baddies such as Lyrie, I (personal taste) would be fine letting a grappling monk that has grabbed a wizard be effective against her. Reading into the next chapter as well, the only boss with low CMD is a spellcaster as well. It just appears to me that fighting types have low CMB in the first book.
Hi and welcome!
I love grappling and my monks so I'll try to chime in here.
Improved Grapple (Combat)
You are skilled at grappling opponents.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a grapple combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to grapple you.
Bolding my own. Improved Grapple gives you +2 to initially grapple, and then on ANY grapple checks you make subsequently. And you don't provoke AoO's.
Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll.
This is from the grapple section. The -4 for not having 2 hands free is only when you are trying to grapple. Like if you had 2 weapons and tried to grapple. So if you successfully grappled a creature while carrying 2 weapons, you did so at a -4 disadvantage.
It doesn't say it explicitly, but the wording does not imply that you take this -4 on checks. Tie up is a little different which I will get to in a bit.
If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
So after you grapple, on your enemies' turn, if they don't break out, you get a +5 to your subsequent grapple checks (like pinning), plus you're +2 for Improved Grapple. +7 altogether. And you're enemy is at a -2 for being grappled so +9 effectively.
Then you go to pin:
You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.
At +9 altogether (factoring in the enemy's -2 and Improved Grapple) you go to pin as part of your standard action for making a grapple check. If you succeed the enemy is now pinned, so -4 non-cumulative with grappled. So +11 effectively.
Then you get to Tie Up. You can tie up without pinning, but that is at a -10 disadvantage. This is going to actually be a full round action, since you have to draw your rope from wherever it is (assuming you have it in an easily drawable place) as a move action, then burn your standard action on the check to tie up. Again, the rules don't explicitly mention it here and the wording above makes it sound like the -4 is only when you initiate a grapple. That's the way I've always read it. If successful your opponent is helpless.
3 rounds to tie up your villain. R1 = Grapple. R2 = Pin. R3 = Tie Up. You can tie up in R2 but at a -10 disadvantage (assuming Improved Grapple you are at +2+5 and your enemy is at -2 so +9 altogether with the -10 means -1 effectively.)
Go Greater Grapple and your grapple checks become move actions and you can grapple and pin in the same round.
I think the grapple modifiers for size are wildly inappropriate. Something else we might house rule to avoid 120lb monks from physically pinning 3000lb huge red dragons. Either that, or because the monk min/maxed and has 7 intel, make DC20 intel checks against unknown mobs to try and figure out their physiology. As in, "yeah, the dragon does not really care that you pulled on that particular part of his body. And thus did not have a pain response to encourage him to be moved 20 feet. Because your strength score sure as hell does not cover a 3K lb drag"
I will add more mobs (I have already upped the difficulty of nearly every encounter). One issue I have with that is I unintentionally almost one shotted the party tank, because I amped up a creatures Dex and Str mainly to increase his CMD. But then critted the fighter with the beefed stats! LOL
Also, anyone have comments on improved grapple, getting the bonus to CMD if the creature just wants to escape versus reverse? Also, what about hands full of rope taking the -4? Is that inherently correct or me nerfing?
RAW, improved grapple doesn't help CMD.
The way tie-up is written, it's ambiguous whether you have to draw rope before using it to make a grapple tie up check, but even if you rule that way, as long as his other hand is free there is no -4.
And some advice: if you hate that particular character build, don't pile on the houserules until that player's character has a fraction of the utility it had when she created it.
Ask her to change characters, or accept that she enjoys a set of mechanics you don't. Otherwise you'll end up with a (rightly) pissed off player and a risk of game-ending drama.
...the penalty to attack rolls for being grappled doesn't apply to attacks made against the one grappling you.Where is this from? As best I can tell, the only attack rolls not affected by being grappled are those made to break the grapple. Admittedly, the penalty is balanced out in most cases by the fact that the person grappling also counts as grappled, with the -4 penalty to Dex. Is that what you mean?
Ah seems I misread that, or it was changed in a later printing.
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So, math wise, the following had to happen: 80% original, 75% fail escape, 95% maintain, 75% fail escape, 95% tied up. = 41% chance of never hurting a 60hp NPC and cutting his throat at the end. And, if anywhere along the chain the NPC escapes, his action (attack) is burnt for the round and the process begins again. We are also playing with Hero Points, which I am fearful will now be held for all things grapple.
Well, instead of escaping the Boss could have cast a spell or made a full round attack. These most likely would have been a better call. If the cleric heals the monk, who cares. If the party wants to blow their Hero Points on the grapple, let them. As the GM, it is all about making the PCs spend actions and resources.
Remember, they spent 3 actions to grapple this Boss. Not to mention, the move actions to get adjacent to him. These could have been melee or ranged attacks or spells. Any of which could have the same effect. The cleric casting hold person can be just as devastating as the three rounds to pin and tie up the Boss. Not to mention, web.
In the end the Boss will Die. The Party will be victorious. Let, them have their fun.
Rather than change the rules. Plan for the grapple (you know it is coming). Adding mooks or placing enemies in difficult terrain, can slow the monk down. You could also give Bosses a hero point or two. It would make sense and not require any house rules. It would change the 16 needed to an 8 (by adding 8 to a d20 roll) or let the Boss make an attack after breaking the grapple.