Nasty Sap Master Combo

[ScrollMasterRob]

There is a particularly nasty sap mastery combo, especially when used in conjunction with a cruel weapon. If the damage is all non-leathal, how much natural armor would a creature need to avoid taking any kind of damage? Also, would wearing a helmet negate sap damage? That useful helmet would negate sap damage in previous incarnations of this game.

[blackbloodtroll]

Helmets and Natural Armor have no effect on damage.

What combo?

Where is the negation of damage coming from?

[ScrollMasterRob]

It is a long & drawn out combo. Weapon focus (sap), dazzling display, shatter defenses, enforcer, bludgeoner, sap master, and sap adept. With a cruel weapon. The player hits the victim, intimidates the victim for free, and sickens the victim with the cruel weapon. The victim is now sufferring from -4 to most everything.

The player also has a sipping jacket into which he likes to feed potions of invisibility.

The player also believes that being sickened negates uncanny dodge.

If ANYONE can link in an OFFICIAL RULING on these subjects, it would be greatly appreciated.

Getting back to the original post, in 1e and 2e, the sapper had to hit their victim on their unprotected head. If the victim was wearing a helmet, or had a real tough skull, horns, and etc., then the victim couldn't be sapped.

In 3.5, if a creature had a +1 natural armor bonus, the creature would not take non-lethal damage from certain weapons-see whip.

[ScrollMasterRob]

And yes, I have pointes out several times what the sipping jacket says in the Ultimate Equipment Guide. Only instantaneous or round per level potions.

[mplindustries]

Nothing negates uncanny dodge unless it specifically says it does, either in the uncanny dodge description, or the condition itself. Sickened says no such thing. No reference needed.

[blackbloodtroll]

Where did the Natural Armor/Helmet thing come in?

There is no way sickened effects uncanny dodge.

[Drakkiel]

In the case of using that combo it doesn't matter if the enemy has Uncanny Dodge or not...they don't gain the condition "flat-footed" they are considered flat-footed to your attacks...its a long winded, feat intensive way to beat uncanny dodge and not have to use feint to deal damage...it fails great against enemies that are immune to non-lethal damage (and its quite amusing when a GM does that btw)

One of the players from my normal group also plays in PFS at our local game store and got that ruling from his GM...as far as IMO I think it works exactly like that...I see it that way because to get around Uncanny dodge all you have to do is feint...if someone wants to spend 7 feats to get a combo that only works if they do non-lethal damage with their first attack instead of just taking Two-weapon feint or the Improved/Greater Feint feats then more power to them :)

And yes I know the build itself works BEAUTIFULLY when it works...I've seen it personally and it was very well rolled too I might add

[blackbloodtroll]

Wait.

I remember that now.

One of the few ways a Rogue can still sort of shine.

Don't take that away.

[Nicos]

Well, a thugh with cornugon smash can frightend and sickend without much more easier.

So there is not need to nerf the sap master.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Or you can be a Rake and sack 1d6 SA damage to make your hits intimidate. I prefer Thug + Enforcer, though.