Sunder vs. Golems / Gargoyles

[NoJustice]

So I was wondering if sunder attempts can be applied to creatures made of certain materials to completely destroy them, like aforementioned gargoyles and stone/iron golems.

[Nuku]

Isn't every attack against them an attempt to sunder?

[Jeraa]

Quote:

You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack. If you do not have the Improved Sunder feat, or a similar ability, attempting to sunder an item provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

Sunder can not be used against creatures, unless the creature specifically says you can (like hydras).

[NoJustice]

Well golems have never made much sense to me anyways. A being made of metal. Now if an object were made of metal, no one in the party would be able to break it, but now that it's a golem, you don't need a sunder attempt to hurt it? Riiiiiiiiiight... I'll allow it and the broken condition to apply to lower it's AC.

Thanks for the info guys!

[Nuku]

I admit confusion.

What sunder effect are you aiming for, lowering its AC? It has no armor to split open, and if you did split part of it, under it would be more metal of the same hardness. How would this work?

[NoJustice]

You're right. I'll have it be destroyed.

[NoJustice]

Or at least cut in half. Point being, sunder will do extra damage to it and if a sunder attempt is what lowers it below half hp, the golem is done, because it makes no sense that an object made of iron needs to be subject to sunder attempts to be broken, but an iron golem has no hardness or anything that needs to be bypassed because reasons. I could even understand the HP thing if the golem was mechanical in nature since enough damage could mess up it's internal workings enough to make it stop functioning, but it's animated by magic.

Hopefully the guy using sunder will figure this out, like the rogue used disable device to disable the mechanical golems last week.

[Kazaan]

An image just flashed in my head of taking a series of swings with a sword at an iron golem. It looks like it does nothing and the golem continues attacking only to collapse into clean-cut chunks of metal.

[Mojorat]

I think your confused how sunder works NoJustice.

Say we have a lvl 11 barbarian, normally hasted he can do 4 attacks well say 2d6+26. which is absorbed by the golems DR10

IF he sunders he would get 1 attack presumably at 2d6+26 absorbed by the golems dr10.

In what way does he benefit from sundering? He drops from 4 attacks to 1 and does not in fact do any more damage when he hits.

It really sounds to me like your looking for house rule applications of sunder. because the current Sunder doesnt do anything except break objects at 1 attack per round.

[NoJustice]

Mojorat wrote:

I think your confused how sunder works NoJustice.

Say we have a lvl 11 barbarian, normally hasted he can do 4 attacks well say 2d6+26. which is absorbed by the golems DR10

IF he sunders he would get 1 attack presumably at 2d6+26 absorbed by the golems dr10.

In what way does he benefit from sundering? He drops from 4 attacks to 1 and does not in fact do any more damage when he hits.

It really sounds to me like your looking for house rule applications of sunder. because the current Sunder doesnt do anything except break objects at 1 attack per round.

Well, for one, a character can make multiple sunder attempts per round. It replaces an attack. http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9pyv

Also, explain to me why an iron golem, (note the word IRON), which is made completely of said material IRON has no hardness or anything which needs to be bypassed in order to harm it. It's the same as if you were attacking an inanimate object, only now it's not because like I mentioned before, reasons. There's NO REASON FOR IT.

Now that it's bouncing around, shimmying and shaking and having a grand old time, it no longer has hardness? So... If the group needs to escape a dungeon, they'll just cast Animate Door on the locked door and make it into a door golem to make it weaker and bypass it's hardness so they can just stab it until it breaks to escape. So what we have here is one of two options.

Option 1) Sunder should not exist at all since anyone can just attack a golem without making a sunder attempt to deal damage, even though it is just a pile of material. If I can hurt an iron golem without making a sunder attempt, why should I have to roll a sunder attempt to destroy an iron vase?

Option 2) The golems themselves as written are flawed as they do not take into account they are purely constructed from whatever material they are and a wizard without the sunder feat could hurt them.

[Nuku]

Maybe you should use animate statues?

[Isil-zha]

NoJustice: The iron golem has DR 15/adamantine which works more or less exactly like hardness against weapon attacks and it is harder to harm with magic than an iron object. So I don't quite understand your problem.

Also the golem is NOT just a pile of material.
Or better: the golem is not JUST a pile of material

[_Cobalt_]

NoJustice wrote:

no hardness or anything which needs to be bypassed in order to harm it

*cough* DR *cough*

DR is harness for creatures.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Isil-zha

[Jaçinto]

I would also like to point out that Golems are not just big robots and stuff like that. They are technically alive. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/golem.html So you are not just fighting the metal vessel but also the spirit that is bound to it. I think it is one of those times were the reason is "because magic." Also for that wooden door thing you were talking about, you can't sunder it. If an item is not attended, you just deal damage as normal. Sunder is for when an opponent is holding an item and thus maneuvering to keep it from breaking.

[_Cobalt_]

Also, gargoyles are mentioned in your post. Gargoyles are monstrous humanoids with strong ties to the Plane of Earth, not actual beings made of earth. Otherwise, they would be constructs.

[Mojorat]

@noJustice No actually Sunder is a standard action unless they changed it. As far as i know only Monks can make multiple sunder attempts around.

I am also not clear where you got the idea that Iron has no hardness. As far as the Iron Golem themselves they have DR/10 there is no way to cheese around that by using sunder. Your swords do not suddenly magically cut the giant metal monster like butter because sunder was used.

[Isil-zha]

Because it is a creature not an attended object...

Mojorat, I believe you are wrong, in regards to sunder being a standard action. You sunder in place of a melee attack. (just like disarm or trip)

[NoJustice]

Mojorat wrote:

@noJustice No actually Sunder is a standard action unless they changed it. As far as i know only Monks can make multiple sunder attempts around.

I am also not clear where you got the idea that Iron has no hardness. As far as the Iron Golem themselves they have DR/10 there is no way to cheese around that by using sunder. Your swords do not suddenly magically cut the giant metal monster like butter because sunder was used.

Well read the link I responded with previously, it'll tell you that you can make as many sunder attempts as you can attacks.

I understand that, but why do you now not have to make a sunder attempt merely because it's rolling around the floor eating the parties lunch? It is STILL made entirely of that material.

[_Cobalt_]

The PFSRD says it is in place of a melee attack. So, if you can attack multiple times in a round, that's multiple sunders in a round.

[NoJustice]

Isil-zha wrote:

Because it is a creature not an attended object...

Mojorat, I believe you are wrong, in regards to sunder being a standard action. You sunder in place of a melee attack. (just like disarm or trip)

Okay, then what are the advantages of sunder then? If I can just attack a golem without needing to make a sunder check to destroy it, why do I have to make a sunder check to destroy an unattended item? Why not just attack it?

[_Cobalt_]

NoJustice wrote:

Isil-zha wrote:

Because it is a creature not an attended object...

Mojorat, I believe you are wrong, in regards to sunder being a standard action. You sunder in place of a melee attack. (just like disarm or trip)

Okay, then what are the advantages of sunder then? If I can just attack a golem without needing to make a sunder check to destroy it, why do I have to make a sunder check to destroy an unattended item? Why not just attack it?

I'm interested in this as well. I always just attack stuff, not sunder. Unless an enemy is holding it, in which case I kind of have to sunder.

[Isil-zha]

You don't have to sunder unattended objects, you attack them.

For attended objects however the creature attending them has to be taken into account and this is where sunder comes in.

Smashing an Object:

Smashing a weapon or shield with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon is accomplished with the sunder combat maneuver (see Combat). Smashing an object is like sundering a weapon or shield, except that your combat maneuver check is opposed by the object's AC. Generally, you can smash an object only with a bludgeoning or slashing weapon.

Armor Class: Objects are easier to hit than creatures because they don't usually move, but many are tough enough to shrug off some damage from each blow. An object's Armor Class is equal to 10 + its size modifier (see Table: Size and Armor Class of Objects) + its Dexterity modifier. An inanimate object has not only a Dexterity of 0 (–5 penalty to AC), but also an additional –2 penalty to its AC. Furthermore, if you take a full-round action to line up a shot, you get an automatic hit with a melee weapon and a +5 bonus on attack rolls with a ranged weapon.

Hardness: Each object has hardness—a number that represents how well it resists damage. When an object is damaged, subtract its hardness from the damage. Only damage in excess of its hardness is deducted from the object's hit points (see Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points, Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points, and Table: Object Hardness and Hit Points).

Hit Points: An object's hit point total depends on what it is made of and how big it is (see Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points, Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points, and Table: Object Hardness and Hit Points). Objects that take damage equal to or greater than half their total hit points gain the broken condition (see Conditions). When an object's hit points reach 0, it's ruined.

Very large objects have separate hit point totals for different sections.

Energy Attacks: Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object's hardness. Some energy types might be particularly effective against certain objects, subject to GM discretion. For example, fire might do full damage against parchment, cloth, and other objects that burn easily. Sonic might do full damage against glass and crystal objects.

Ranged Weapon Damage: Objects take half damage from ranged weapons (unless the weapon is a siege engine or something similar). Divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the object's hardness.

Ineffective Weapons: Certain weapons just can't effectively deal damage to certain objects. For example, a bludgeoning weapon cannot be used to damage a rope. Likewise, most melee weapons have little effect on stone walls and doors, unless they are designed for breaking up stone, such as a pick or hammer.

Immunities: Objects are immune to nonlethal damage and to critical hits. Even animated objects, which are otherwise considered creatures, have these immunities.

Magic Armor, Shields, and Weapons: Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to the hardness of armor, a weapon, or a shield, and +10 to the item's hit points.

Vulnerability to Certain Attacks: Certain attacks are especially successful against some objects. In such cases, attacks deal double their normal damage and may ignore the object's hardness.

Damaged Objects: A damaged object remains functional with the broken condition until the item's hit points are reduced to 0, at which point it is destroyed.

Damaged (but not destroyed) objects can be repaired with the Craft skill and a number of spells.

Saving Throws: Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they are always fully affected by spells and other attacks that allow saving throws to resist or negate. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character's saving throw bonus).

Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item's Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.

Animated Objects: Animated objects count as creatures for purposes of determining their Armor Class (do not treat them as inanimate objects).

[_Cobalt_]

Isil-zha wrote:

You don't have to sunder unattended objects, you attack them.

For attended objects however the creature attending them has to be taken into account and this is where sunder comes in.

Oh. So how I was using it was right.

[NoJustice]

Ahhhh, okay. Yeah, I completely over looked that in the description. So Sunder is your ability to wield your great sword like an over sized scalpel with surgical precision and destroy something on your opponent without somehow hurting them unless you take the feat for that. Gotcha. Well thanks for the help guys!

[Mojorat]

As far as Sunder goes it appears i stand corrected. My rulebook and the PRD both say as part of an attack action. It seems d20pfsrd is updated to Rules changes faster than the PRD is :(

[Kazaan]

Official Faq wrote:

Can I make multiple sunder attempts in one round as part of a full-attack action? The sunder text says that I can make sunder attempts in place of melee attacks in an attack action, which is not technically a full-attack action.

Yes you can. The text is a little unclear here. Instead of saying "as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack", the text should read "in place of a melee attack", which would allow you to make multiple attempts in one round, or even make a sunder attempt as an attack of opportunity.

—Jason Bulmahn, 11/30/12

Source. It has an official FAQ now and is probably pending errata.

[Turin the Mad]

Well, to be fair, normally you're Sundering stuff that makes it harder for the critter wielding the item to continue to smash your squishes with (weapons) or you're Sundering stuff to make it easier to Power Attack the critter that's wearing/using it (armor, shields) if the critter survives the sneak attack character's shiv-fest.

You Sunder the critter's vorpal sickle, no more head loppage to worry about! You Sunder the critter's 500 gp gold unholy symbol, no more destruction spells to worry about! You Sunder the critter's mithral shield (first attack) and elven chain (second attack), the critter's AC just dropped by a minimum of 8 points - a lot more in many cases, at least 4 points if you make them "merely" broken. For the loot conscientious making the high hit point items broken is much more acceptable than outright destroying it.

Yes, this makes adamantine +1 (and up) two-handed weapons Your Bestest Friend for a long, long time. You also make the sneak attack player's job a whole lot easier as they slide shivs into the buggers recently unprotected kidneys.

Critters themselves you "sunder" by chopping them into chunkly salsa. Given the creature types you just mentioned, that +1 adamantine two-handed weapon works juuuust fine. ;)

If you want to one-hit-kill 'em ... invest in Improved Critical or get your sneak attack buddy to learn the art of 'Crit Fishing'.