| Shinnyshin |
Hi, so I have a few question about a few mechanics of nonlethal damage, especially as they pertain to Enforcer; I tried googling this for quite some time but overall there doesn't seem to be much out there regarding nonlethal.
If you're using the Enforcer feat (intimidate upon dealing nonlethal damage) while doing nonlethal against Undead (immune to nonlethal damage), then are you still able to Intimidate on hit? On one hand, your attack did hit and you are dealing nonlethal damage, even if they're not going to take damage no matter what you roll. On the other hand, they are immune to nonlethal damage so whether you're dealing damage is debatable. I guess what it comes down to is whether your character is still "dealing damage" if they hit an opponent that's immune to that damage type. Is it that you deal damage but they don't take any due to immunity (nullification on their side) or that you don't deal damage to immunity (nullification from your side).
Another question on the subject of nonlethal damage obtained from Blade of Mercy. If you have multiple damage types on your attack--e.g. + 1d6 Fire from Flames of the Faithful--then is it all converted to nonlethal? Or is it just the stuff that would've been slashing from your weapon and the additional stuff retains its original damage type?
On last question, this one on the wording of Enforcer. The second half of the ability states:
"If your attack was a critical hit, your target is frightened for 1 round with a successful Intimidate check, as well as being shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt."
I'm a bit unsure on how to interpret that last clause. Is it saying that when you crit you automatically inflict Shaken for X rounds? And then you roll Intimidate to see if you can inflict Frightened on top of that? Or does the Intimidate roll determine both the Shaken and Frightened conditions? The people I was discussing it with and I thought the placement of the comma implied the former (auto-Shaken, possible Frightened), but we really weren't sure. Phrasing definitely allows for both interpretations. Can anyone here offer some insight?
Thank you very much for your help, everyone!
| Mojorat |
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One thing that might help all this is that Undead are immune to being demoralized unless you have some other effect that lets you affect undead with mind affecting or fear effects.
Tho the easiest thing is if your doing non lethal damage your doing no damage. a Table or corpse doesn't care if you hit it with a wiffle bat.
| RumpinRufus |
1) Since the undead are immune to nonlethal, you are not dealing any damage to them, and so Enforcer does not activate. (It's debateable whether undead can be demoralized anyway, but that's a different discussion.)
2) With Blade of Mercy, only the weapon damage is nonlethal. Any damage dice from a source besides the weapon itself is of the normal type, so a flaming weapon would do 1d6 lethal fire damage. However, I believe a holy weapon would do nonlethal, because it says "This power makes the weapon good-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all creatures of evil alignment," implying that the weapon itself is doing the damage (so it is nonlethal,) whereas flaming reads "a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire that deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit," so it is the fire doing the damage and not the weapon itself, making it lethal.
3) Even on a critical, you don't cause the Shaken condition unless you make your Intimidate check. It should probably be rephrased "If your attack was a critical hit, your target is frightened for 1 round as well as being shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt with a successful Intimidate check."
Tirq
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One thing that might help all this is that Undead are immune to being demoralized unless you have some other effect that lets you affect undead with mind affecting nor fear effects.
Tho the easiest thing is if your doing non lethal damage your doing no damage. a Table or corpse doesn't care if you hit it with a wiffle bat.
Intimidate is neither a Mind Affecting effect or a Fear effect.
Yeah, doesn't make any sense either, but dem's da rules. Linkified.
The part that is implied.
You can use this skill to cause an opponent to become shaken for a number of rounds. This shaken condition doesn’t stack with other shaken conditions to make an affected creature frightened. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier.
Success: If you are successful, the target is shaken for one round. This duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which you beat the DC. You can only threaten an opponent this way if it is within 30 feet and can clearly see and hear you. Using demoralize on the same creature only extends the duration; it does not create a stronger fear condition.
Fail: The opponent is not shaken.
| Shinnyshin |
Thankee kindly for the help. Yeah, that makes sense. Too much time spent in games where damage is calculated applied pre-resists and then mitigated, so you're still dealing damage even if no damage is taken. Also too much reading into grammar and forgetting that people casually slap on commas.
Also, our DM house-rules that sentient undead (Vamps, Ghouls, etc...) can be demoralized but non-sentient cannot, which simplifies some things for me (Blistering Invective yay).
On the subject of fear chains and the fear ladder, our most veteran party member has guesstimated--admittedly based largely on 3.5 knowledge--that Weapon of Awe (mind-affecting fear Shaken on crit) stacks with Enforcer (demoralize Shaken on hit & intimidate, demoralize Frightened and Shaken on crit & Intimidate) to drive susceptible straight to Panicked on a successful crit and Intimidate. Do you guys know if that's how it works? And the lingering Shaken from Enforcer and Shaken from Weapon of Awe do stack to Frightened?
| MacGurcules |
The easiest answer is in the description for immunity from the Bestiary:
A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.
Bold for emphasis. Undead are immune to non-lethal damage, so they aren't subject to the secondary effect granted by Enforcer.