|
I've located an awesome chart with the tier 1(summon monster 1) monster stat blocks with and without augment summon modifiers all ready to go.
Is there any similar chart out there for tier 2-9?
Got an up and coming summoner who would appreciate it so very much.
Speaking of, any critical dos/don'ts for a summoner?
I've located an awesome chart with the tier 1(summon monster 1) monster stat blocks with and without augment summon modifiers all ready to go.
Is there any similar chart out there for tier 2-9?
Got an up and coming summoner who would appreciate it so very much.
Speaking of, any critical dos/don'ts for a summoner?
If you go here it lists all of the standard monster summoning lists as well as some alternates, and if you click on the monsters themselves you'll get stat blocks with and without for all levels.
I'm a long-time Summoner and Master Summoner player so I'd be happy to offer up advice - which one are you running?
|
|
Playing in PFS, so that limits my options a fair bit. I'm going to sound wishy washy and say the goal is to help the team make it through to the end.
I played two sessions as a halfling rider of the eidolon, but that seems to get you into danger more often than not, which does not help the party.
Revamped to a human with augment summon.
My stats:
Male Human (Tian-Shu) Summoner 1
N Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +1
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 9 (1d8+1)
Fort +1, Ref +2, Will +3
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Light mace +0 (1d6/x2) and
Spiked gauntlet +0 (1d4/x2)
Spell-Like Abilities Summon Monster I (6/day)
Summoner Spells Known (CL 1):
1 (2/day) Grease (DC 15), Infernal Healing
0 (at will) Acid Splash, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Light
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 11, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 16
Base Atk +0; CMB +0; CMD 12
Feats Augment Summoning, Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Traits Ease of Faith, Extremely Fashionable (Bluff)
Skills Acrobatics +1, Bluff +7, Climb -1, Diplomacy +8, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (local) +6, Ride +1, Spellcraft +6, Stealth +1, Swim -1, Use Magic Device +7
Languages Common, Kelish, Osiriani, Tien
SQ eidolon link, life link, share spells with eidolon
Combat Gear Wand of Infernal Healing, Acid, Smelling salts; Other Gear Masterwork Chain shirt, Light mace, Spiked gauntlet, Backpack, masterwork (empty), Belt pouch (2 @ 1 lbs), Earplugs, Skeleton key, Spell component pouch, 2070 GP, 1 SP, 1 CP
|
Seems like you are sort of in the middle ground about what you will do or wont do depending on what needs to be done. In short, you are looking for flexibility (that's what it sounds like). My summoner has split all of his focus between crafting for himself and the eidolon, bonus spells per day/evolutions and maxing the summoning feats. With this in mind, he's the best summon monster spell user he can be barring taking traits to enhance it further, while shoring up the summoner classes weakness of not enough of those middle level spells known/per day and increasing the summoners strengths (eidolon evolutions). You could adopt a somewhat similar approach.
My gnome summoner genuinely thinks of himself as a wizard so combat was not the option on feats. He doesn't even use a weapon, though I like the idea of the spiked gauntlet. If you want to be helpful, generically to the party, the main focus I would have would be on the Eidolon and/or the summoned monsters. Summoned monsters are more expendable and with augment summoning are rather efficient at low level. But the Eidolon is a pretty effective beast all it's own if properly designed. Either way works ok. I use both.
Your wand of infernal healing seems to be better suited to eidolon use than focusing on summoned monsters. Other options available to you include careful spell selection. If, for instance, you take mage armor next level, then you have the ability to power up the Eidolon substantially and keep it alive, while simultaneously being able to fall back on summoned monsters that won't be weak. If you have any sort of time to prepare before a combat, the combination should prove absolutely lethal to your enemies as dogs, eagles and the like are pretty decent on their own for low level but worse when you augment them. At level one this is all not a possibility but at levels 2-4 you can summon monsters first, and then spend a minute summoning the eidolon, then approach the bad guys (assuming you had prep time) and win the encounter (usually). You're ahead of the game with Grease. If you want to focus strictly on making the team live longer, then Daze Monster (which you can change out later) and Alarm all have their uses in terms of raw survival. Later, Ablative Barrier, Bears Endurance, Haste and Glitterdust offer very useful services to your goal (as does Slow). Feat wise, you can take Superior Summoning as soon as you can as summoning 1st level monsters with augmented summoning isn't terrible when you are bringing out 2-4 at a time. This becomes more pronounced as levels progress and is a significant reason to consider taking a communal bulls strength or Bears Endurance spell, scroll, wand, etc when you get the chance.
These are all low level options that work with the information you've given me and are focused towards just lasting longer. Hopefully they help.
|
|
I appreciate the feedback!
I just reached up to level 2 today, but haven't played as level 2, so still got some room to tweak things about.
What do you think of the stat layout?
I'm not sure about the +natural armor evolution, since I seem to get hit, +2 ac or not, and it got +2 for getting to level 2 anyway. I was thinking to ditch it and instead grab the +2 to strength, allowing it to actually land hits more reliably, and do more when it does, but I may be overlooking something badly.
I have grease, infernal healing, Summon Monster as my spells currently.
Snagged a cloak of resist +1 because, well, is there a character that does not profit from this?
My revised stats:
Male Human (Tian-Shu) Summoner 2
N Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses bond senses (2 rounds/day); Perception +1
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 Dex)
hp 17 (2d8+4)
Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +5
Melee Light mace +1 (1d6/x2) and
Spiked gauntlet +1 (1d4/x2)
Summoner Spells Known (CL 2):
1 (3/day) Summon Monster I, Grease (DC 15), Infernal Healing
0 (at will) Acid Splash, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Light
Str 11, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 16
Base Atk +1; CMB +1; CMD 13
Feats Augment Summoning, Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Traits Ease of Faith, Extremely Fashionable (Bluff)
Skills Acrobatics +1, Bluff +8, Climb -1, Diplomacy +9, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (local) +7, Ride +1, Spellcraft +6, Stealth +1, Swim -1, Use Magic Device +8
Combat Gear: Wand of Infernal Healing, Acid, Smelling salts; Other Gear Masterwork Chain shirt, Light mace, Spiked gauntlet, Cloak of resistance +1, Backpack, masterwork (empty), Belt pouch (4 @ 1 lbs), Earplugs, Skeleton key, Spell component pouch, 1658 GP, 1 SP, 1 CP
Eidolon stats:
Eidolon
Quadruped
N Medium Outsider
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +5
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+2 Dex, +4 natural)
hp 16 (+5)
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +0
Defensive Abilities evasion
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft., climbing (40 feet)
Melee Bite (Bite) +5 (1d6+3/x2) and
Claw x2 (Claws) +5 x2 (1d4+3/x2)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 17, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +2; CMB +5; CMD 17 (21 vs. Trip)
Feats Toughness +3
Skills Acrobatics +2 (+6 jump), Climb +13, Perception +5, Stealth +7, Swim +8
Languages Common
Other Gear Pack saddle, exotic, You have no money!
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Climbing (40 feet) You have a Climb speed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save.
Thanks again on the review and advice. Looking forward to feedback.
|
|
I am assuming you have a quadruped Eidolon, they start with +2 natural AC and +2 from dex. The starting AC is 14 (13 for biped, 15 for serpentine). At level two, with the natural armor evolution, your eidolons AC should be an unmodified 18. Mage Armor makes it a 22, and adding Shield increases this to 26. There is nothing that should be a threat for it. Furthermore, Dodge, instead of toughness would give you a base AC of 19 making it more reasonable to just use mage armor or nothing at all. Infernal Healing should be more than enough to keep it alive between the very few hits the Eidolon takes. A level two eidolon could have an 18-27 AC for a combat without it costing any sort of real investment depending on how much beyond 18 you are trying to go. With infernal healing, I wouldn't go very far past it.
I see the 40 foot climb speed and assume you either purchased climb twice or actually have a serpentine eidolon (then it has even more AC).
I see almost no purpose, whatsoever, to learn Summon Monster 1 as an actual spell. My summoner intends to be able to casts summons as well as use his eidolon, simultaneously, and I would rather wait to learn Summon Monster 3 or higher before wasting spell slots. If you JUST want a flanking option- any flanking option, that is reliable, if even only for a round (because you only get 1 monster from summon monster 1 because it's not high enough level to summon multiple lower level monsters since there is nothing lower level to summon).
The absolute minimum level required to get legitimate use out of that spell (imo) is summon monster 2, so you can have 1d3 monsters and they might last into round two or soak up attacks from multiple targets in round 1. But Summon Monster 3, 4 and 5 seem to be the better options for this sort of thing as you get both useful summons and multiples of these summons. I personally went with Summon Monster 5 (if memory serves).
I would also scrap Acid Splash from your cantrip list. I've seen those little spells in action on a low level wizard (ray of frost, etc) and they are just not worth the actions, imo. You could do more for your parties survival in the long term with Guidance and/or Resistance, or Open/Close even. I'm not kidding either. I think each of those (and several other cantrips, like Daze) are infinitely superior to getting an enemy to drop or not hurt you or preserving health, than acid splashing. This extends to Message and maybe even Mage Hand (which you have). I personally took, Message, Daze (my main combat spell), Open/Close, Read Magic, Detect Magic and Mage Hand. But most of that was for theme, while Daze was for pure combat purposes since I refuse to use a crossbow. Other than that, your character is doing better than mine is in terms of gear. I'm sitting on about 600 gp....total wealth. I'm also nearly 4th level (10 exp away). The fact that without magic items (at all) and no equipment (except my light armor), I can survive and my Eidolon has had 0 problems, goes to show that the Summoner can stand on it's own at low levels quite well.
I'm not sure about your PC or your eidolons skill selection, especially acrobatics, but I suspect these are fitting with the character since it seems like you intend to go into melee and your eidolon doesn't look like a pouncer, so it is very possible that the skills, climb speed and such all fit an idea that I just don't know about. I am making a Cerberus, so I can't justify Acrobatics (although I could climb- because a cerberus climbing the walls of you tower or keep is truly terrifying) since a gigantic three headed demon dog doing flips and tumbling is more fitting for a cartoon or a really, really good laugh. But a serpent or biped, absolutely.
|
|
Addendum: I have a bottle of acid, which increases the damage of that acid spell by 1, which makes it an infinitely repeatable touch attack for 1d3+1. Worth writing home about? Eh... maybe not, but a lot better than doing nothing, and more likely to hit than trying to plink at things with a crossbow. I've killed a few things with it, amusingly.
|
|
I'd personally stay away from acid splash. It's just so bad over time, imo. I guess it depends on style, too.
Acrobatics and summoners don't seem to mix. On a serpentine Eidolon, as I said, sure. I can see it. Most level 1 spells are better than taking Summon Monster 1. You should have 6+ of those that lasts a minute or longer each, and cast as a standard action. Not seeing the need to waste one of your very few spells known on the same thing but worse in so many ways.
Mage armor is great for the eidolon and summoners can wear light armor. So you could just put on some studded leather and cast mage armor on the eidolon. You're good to go. But depending on your needs there are other spells, like Magic Fang, Lesser Rejuvinate Eidolon, Compel Hostility and Daze Monster all have their place either in conjunction with one another or individually. You can compel enemies to attack the eidolon and heal it with rejuvinate. You can magic fang the eidolon and just power out its damage output as much as possible. You could Enhance action economy by daze monstering a target and having the eidolon chew on something else, etc.
I'd personally stay away from acid splash. It's just so bad over time, imo. I guess it depends on style, too.
The nice thing about Acid Splash, is that it doesn't allow for Spell Resistance or a Saving Throw. So as long as you can hit the Touch and it doesn't have Acid Resistance, it is damage each round. Its better than any ranged weapon you'd take (between higher AC & Damage Reduction anyway).
Now 2-4 points of damage might seem "Useless", but if you don't want to go nuclear each combat, its not a bad fallback position spell. At early levels, you can still kill creatures outright with it, and can help whittle things down you can't.
Daze has 2 main hurting points. First is the Target can only be hit with it once every 10 rounds, so you can't spam it as much. The second, and worse part, is the limit to 4 Hit Dice. So if you proceed with it, it'll become useless.
At least Acid Splash will still turn off a Troll's Regen at higher levels (for example).
Now, if you have Wands to Spam, obviously, that will most likely be a better option, but if you've got the fight in hand, do you want to use that extra charge when you know you'll be in the dungeon a few more days?
I see almost no purpose, whatsoever, to learn Summon Monster 1 as an actual spell. My summoner intends to be able to casts summons as well as use his eidolon, simultaneously
I am pretty sure it is in the rules that a summoner can not have the eidolon out at the same time as a summoned monster
I see almost no purpose, whatsoever, to learn Summon Monster 1 as an actual spell. My summoner intends to be able to casts summons as well as use his eidolon, simultaneouslyI am pretty sure it is in the rules that a summoner can not have the eidolon out at the same time as a summoned monster
[i]** spoiler omitted **.
Does that apply to the Spell as well as the SLA?
(I know the Master Summoner does bypass this limitation for the SLA, but is the Spell limited as the SLA is)
|
|
It only applies to the spell like ability to summon the monster since it is using the same power the summoner uses to call his eidolon. This is why the regular summon monster spells are on their class list (in part) and why there is a summon eidolon spell. Your eidolon stays with you all day, enemies come, but you need the 'I'm a summoner' effects, so you cast summon Monster (anything but 1), and now you aren't using the same power that is being used to call the eidolon. You're using a spell. The Eidolon has no statement preventing you from summoning anything else while he is out. It is the Summon Monster X Spell Like Ability on the summoner that prevents you from summoning both simultaneously. Once you use the actual spell, it's no where in the description of the spell or the eidolon that you are restricted.
The spell, however, is woefully inferior to the Spell Like Ability, being slower and taking longer to cast while also eating up a spell known and burning a spell per day. But it is still very good as long as you pick the right levels to learn.
With preparation (a minute) you can use one of your uses of summon monster X and then immediately after begin the ritual to summon your eidolon. Since the Summon is the only thing that cannot be used with the Eidolon present, you can still have both out at the same time without any hassle- besides 11 rounds of time to do it. So this is not something you can do in combat. When stuck in combat, you use the actual summon monster spells with your eidolon already out, or you use Summon Eidolon with your Summon Monster SLA. Summoners are versatile.
|
|
Dang, too late to edit.
ZugZug, against a troll, I'd rather summon multiple dogs, flank, trip and attack. Next round, attack again, use SLA for 1d3(possibly+1) eagles, have them all smite evil and rock the troll with a world of hurt (with 1d4+1 or +3 3x per eagle). An exceptionally poorly built/rolled summoner would have 5 uses of his SLA per day. These two seem well worth it and very likely to swing any battle against a single troll in favor of the party. This is using a level 3 summoners statistics.
Sure, you can't daze the troll, but the combat is going to be over within three rounds. You've just spent two. If it isn't dead yet, it should be by next round (counting party members contributions).
If things have gone sour, then sure, acid splash is going to matter here. But honestly, it's statistically unlikely since the trolls have such a low AC that hitting touch or it's full ac are meaningless. a 3/4 character with 9 str and a masterwork weapon can hit the thing on a 14. So we're really not talking about a combat that should take very long (but can be very dangerous once the troll full attacks someone).
I feel there are simply too many options available to the summoner to bother with niche circumstances where acid splash is better than a utility or fun 0 level spell. True, it makes dealing with something like a troll or any single boss monster easier since, at the point the summoner is completely out of useful combat spells and summons he can rely on splashing. But in my opinion, it takes a lot for that scenario to happen. I'd rather daze a low level target, and use the eidolon or summons to target whatever as not dazed. Or to kill what was. Each round, I'd simply attempt to neutralize a single target- possibly two if I can grapple, trip, or kill with the summons or eidolon. The truth is that neither spell is likely to ever matter as levels progress. But if I had to argue which was better later, acid splash probably is since you could melt your way out of jails or the like. I might trade out my daze for it at level 5 just because of that. But earlier on, I'd rather daze all day.
CWheezy is right. 12 con makes lifelink a lot less useful. It also means a heavier investment into AC (probably). But a low con Summoner can work. I think the class is flexible enough to allow for that.
Dang, too late to edit.
ZugZug, against a troll, I'd rather summon multiple dogs, flank, trip and attack. Next round, attack again, use SLA for 1d3(possibly+1) eagles, have them all smite evil and rock the troll with a world of hurt (with 1d4+1 or +3 3x per eagle). An exceptionally poorly built/rolled summoner would have 5 uses of his SLA per day. These two seem well worth it and very likely to swing any battle against a single troll in favor of the party. This is using a level 3 summoners statistics.
Sure, you can't daze the troll, but the combat is going to be over within three rounds. You've just spent two.
But that's kinda my point. You've spent 2 Summons on something you really didn't need to. Part of it is playstyle, and how many encounters your group has to go through. If you're only doing 2-4 encounters in a day, blowing through 2 Summons isn't a big deal, but when you need to have them go through more encounters, it will make a bigger difference.
Also, the point of the Troll, was the Acid Splash will shut down the Regen (and most other things with Regen as well), so it's not 2-4 points, you all of a sudden got an "effective +5 damage" on it from turing it off. Unless the Dogs are going down quickly, I'd take advantage of the duration they're up for, and "Ping" the Troll down.
It's a matter of Playstyles. I'm not a big "Let's go Nuclear on every combat", I'm more of a "We might need these resources later" kinda player.
|
|
I hear you ZugZug. And I'll be honest, I was typing up a post about how I had been converted on the acid splash vs daze argument as at least at super high levels, you could acid splash your way out of a prison by eroding the metal bars, the stone, etc. I even had started making the plan to switch Daze out at level 5 for the spell.
But I just *had* to check the rules on hardness and energy attacks. In 3.5, Acid Splash is useful for exactly what I would want to do. In Pathfinder, however, by RAW, it deals only half damage to objects and doesn't ignore hardness. Even if you had GM approval to allow it to deal full damage to metal and stone, it doesn't do enough damage to bypass hardness of things you would need it to bypass, therefor making it useless in a capacity where it would actually be most useful.
So, I'm staying on the Daze side of the argument. But if I could have used Acid Splash to jail break by RAW- I'd have converted. :-D