Can a druid wildshape into an "Elder" elemental? I know they can turn into "huge" but I'm not sure "elder" or even "greater" is RAW.
Can a druid wildshape into an "Elder" elemental? I know they can turn into "huge" but I'm not sure "elder" or even "greater" is RAW.Well, Elder Earth Elemental is Huge-sized, so my understanding of it is yes.
Mountain Druids get Giant Form I and Giant Form 2 which can make them one of the best Melee Hit Druids because their gear RESIZES...
But its only for Giant subtypes... not Elementals...
In order to wildshape into Elementals.. you use Elemental Body... which is capped at Elemental Body III (Large size only)..
However... some Domain Spells (if your Mountain Druid took one instead of an animal companion) get Elemental Body 4.. which is a 7th level spell (13th level Druid can cast)..
For example... my Domain spell for my Gnome Fire Druid at 7th level is Elemental Body 4.. but FIRE only...
EDIT: A Druid that takes the Earth Domain would indeed get the Elemental Body 4 spell... which means that not as wildshaped but casting a spell to become a HUGE (not Elder) Earth Elemental that is 32 feet tall, weighs 48,000 lbs and you get what the spell description says:
+8 size bonus to your Strength,
–2 penalty on your Dexterity,
+4 size bonus to your Constitution,
+6 natural armor bonus
You are also immune to critical
hits and sneak attacks while in elemental form and gain DR 5/—.
You also gain darkvision 60 feet, the push
ability, and the ability to earth glide.
DOUBLE EDIT: 9th level Druid Spell Shapechange might allow an Elder Huge Earth Elemental perhaps? Guess its up to the DM
Yar!
Being able to turn into an Elder Elemental is debatable (especially as there is an elemental NAMED "huge")... HOWEVER! Reglardless of that, I would treat such an attack as a falling object.
Pathfinder does have rules for this. It's in the Environmental chapter, which I will link to the PRD of it HERE.
Basically, you as a falling huge creature of stone, would do a bse of 6d6 damage. If you fall less than 30', you do half. If you fall more than 150', you do double.
"Note that a falling object takes the same amount of damage as it deals."
As you are using pure body weight to crush what you land on, you would either take this damage as well, or take normal falling damage (perhaps the damage by distance reduced by the height you can normally jump)... up to your GM.
If you blindly leap at foes (as in, to crush everything in a 15' diameter aka everything under the space you occupy), they'd get a DC15 Reflex save for half damage. If you were to aim/leap upon a specific foe, it would be "a ranged touch attack. Such attacks generally have a range increment of 20 feet."
At least, that's how I would do it.
EDIT: Earth elementals (Huge and/or Elder) do not get the Trample ability, nor do they have any mention of doing more than any other huge sized object would do should they fall on a creature... thus when they fall on a creature, they do damage as an object based on their size, as detailed in the Environmental chapter (which I linked to above).
EDIT2: A water elemental in water is still a creature in water. The water the elemental is made out of is separate from the water around it (it does not BECOME the ocean if it's in the middle of the ocean). So yes, it can still be grappled, clawed, bitten, and eaten. It's just very hard to do.
EDIT3: Argh, a duplicate thread! *waits for them to get merged*
Also, at 12th level a druid can change into Huge elemental as if using Elemental Body IV. So huge size is legal... but as I said, it's debatable if they only mean size or the elemental name as well (as before this you were limited to large, so to go from large to "elder" is a "huge" *ahem* "leap". ^_^
~P
Yar!
I mentioned this in my post in the duplicate thread of this, but...
At 12th level, a druid can also use wild shape to change into a Huge elemental or a Huge plant creature. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape now functions as elemental body IV. When taking the form of a plant, the druid's wild shape now functions as plant shape III.
Also, I would use either the falling object damage from the Environmental Chapter, or your slam damage.
~P
I decided to double post which is a taboo.. so I apologize...
Dragons get crush damage starting at Huge sizes...
Crush (Ex): A flying or jumping Huge or larger dragon
can land on foes as a standard action, using its whole body
to crush them. Crush attacks are effective only against
opponents three or more size categories smaller than the
dragon. A crush attack affects as many creatures as fit in the
dragon’s space. Creatures in the affected area must succeed
on a Ref lex save (DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath
weapon) or be pinned, automatically taking bludgeoning
damage during the next round unless the dragon moves
off them. If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, it must
succeed at a combat maneuver check as normal. Pinned
foes take damage from the crush each round if they don’t
escape. A crush attack deals the indicated damage plus
1-1/2 times the dragon’s Strength bonus.
Someone made this into a Feat that any monster can do, but you need either 5 ranks of flying or 5 ranks of Acrobatics,ect.. it was a 3rd party feat.
Understandably a Dragon does not weigh as much as an Earth Elemental, but as for an Earth Elemental "jumping" onto someone I would like to see if you even have the STRENGTH to even pull that off... (Jump is a STR skill) Earth Elementals are SLLOOOOWWWWWWWWW.... and they tend to hate to fly...
Now if you are ontop of a cave and just "fell" onto someone then a DM might use the REflex Rules for falling objects or debris...
Side Note: On my Jade Regent campaign my Druid summoned some Earth Elementals to fight a Remorhaz and I accidentally positioned one over a magical lift that disappeared ontop of a 300 foot spire tower, and the Earth Elemental fell to his demise (winked away)... I bet you he had a cool story to tell to his Earth Buddies back in the Elemental Plane.
Can a druid wildshape into an "Elder" elemental? I know they can turn into "huge" but I'm not sure "elder" or even "greater" is RAW.Well, Elder Earth Elemental is Huge-sized, so my understanding of it is yes.
I'm not buying it, because there is a progression of elemental and "huge" is one of them, and it's less than "greater" or "elder".
I think assuming that "huge" = "elder" is a really major stretch. In this case I believe "huge" refers to the class of elementals described as "huge" not to the elemental's size alone.
Would love to hear a Dev weigh in.
Yar...
I decided to double post ...
:O
*feels ignored*
:(
~P
Yar...
I decided to double post which is a taboo.. so I apologize...:O
*feels ignored*
:(
~P
Its all good Pirate... I did not see your post until after I posted... in effect.. you prevented me from double Posting! Plus I did not see the 2nd Thread, which I read already... I decided not to post there even though there are some good rules about falling objects and stuff...
I also read the anti-pirate build thread.. and LOL when you pipped in about not liking the thread... LOL
Yar!
No worries. I know how it is sometimes. Just having some fun.
:D
~P
Just curious, but why does it matter if you're a Huge Earth Elemental, or a Greater Earth Elemental or an Elder Earth Elemental...? Every single bonus of the transformation is listed out in the Beast Shape IV spell, if I'm not mistaken, so which one of them you look like is (mostly) irrelevant.
This spell functions as elemental body III, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Huge air, earth, fire, or water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the type of elemental into which you change. You are also immune to bleed damage, critical hits, and sneak attacks while in elemental form and gain DR 5/—.
Air elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, +6 size bonus to your Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus. You also gain fly 120 feet (perfect).
Earth elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +8 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus.
Fire elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +6 size bonus to your Dexterity, a +4 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +4 natural armor bonus.
Water elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty on your Dexterity, a +8 size bonus to your Constitution, and a +6 natural armor bonus. You also gain swim 120 feet.
It doesn't say anything about what type of elemental you take, only the SIZE.
EDIT: I just noticed that fire elementals have different DCs for their burn ability based on Elder, Greater, or simply Huge. Personally, as a DM, I would say it's pretty clear that Elemental Body I through III give you a single step increase per level increase of the spell and it is therefore pretty silly to try arguing that the last spell should give you an increase of 3 steps instead of just 1. That's my 2 cp.
| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I'm not buying it, because there is a progression of elemental and "huge" is one of them, and it's less than "greater" or "elder".
right.
One should be able to refer to a Huge Earth Elemental by name.If they meant "any Huge Size Elemental", well, they could have said that... But they didn't.
It IS confusing because Elemental Body isn't simply referring to one specific Elemental,
but is says "the form of a Huge air, earth, fire, or water elemental."
I think the issue is unclear enough that I will hit FAQ because I don't really know the intent,
but until Paizo answers it, I think the conservative reading of RAW (which is what you should use when discussing 'RAW') is for it to reference the creature name, not all Huge Size elementals = No Elder Elementals.
Incidentally, as to the question of how to attack by jumping, I would resolve it as a Charge Attack with the Slam attacks gained from Elemental Body.
If falling damage were to apply, you (the 'faller') also take the damage yourself...
Also, the 'target' would get an AoO for you leaving their threatened adjacent squares when you enter their square (falling).
Yar!
The DC's for the abilities should be based on the creatures stats, so when a druid changes into one, he must calculate his own DC's using his own stats as adjusted by the ability/spell.
The only real difference between a druid wild-shaped into a huge sized Huge Earth Elemental and a huge sized Elder Earth Elemental is the Elder is 8 feet taller and 12000 lbs heavier.
~P
Yar!
The DC's for the abilities should be based on the creatures stats, so when a druid changes into one, he must calculate his own DC's using his own stats as adjusted by the ability/spell.
The only real difference between a druid wild-shaped into a huge sized Huge Earth Elemental and a huge sized Elder Earth Elemental is the Elder is 8 feet taller and 12000 lbs heavier.
~P
Hmm, well the damage of the Burn still differs from Huge to Greater to Elder, but good point on the DCs, nice catch.
I don't believe there are any DCs involved with Earth Elemental form/Elemental Body.
(which would be calculated based on your Casting Stat if they did exist, not the Stat the ability normally uses)
The only difference AFAIK is the damage dice of the Slam attacks,
Huge Elementals (what the spell/wildshape does) has 2d8, Greater and Elder have 2d10.
Elders normally have a higher Crit Range, but that is due to their Improved Critical(Slam) Feat, not inherent nature of their Slams.
(Elemental Body doesn't give you any Feats from the chosen form)
Yar.
Huh, so I did miss that (different damage dice for slam and burn and so forth between huge and greater and elder, despite being the same size).
Then in this case, it would have to be a GM call as to what is possible. Personally, I would rule it being limited to the Elemental actually named "huge", and not the "greater" and "elder" elementals which also happen to be huge sized. Reasoning: It makes logical, linear sense when compared to the progression of the Wild Shape ability and the Beast Shape/Elemental Shape spells.
~P
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Yeah, I had to check to make sure that Greater/Elder Elementals weren't getting that bigger damage dice from a Feat like Improved Natural Attack, because if that was the source of the bigger damage, you wouldn't gain it thru Elemental Body even if Greater/Elder were valid forms.
Another argument against Elemental Body IV allowing Elder Elemental form would simply be that because there's no real difference except better damage dice, everybody would just chose Elder Elemental form, not the other Huge Elemental forms... If that's the case, why not just say "Elder Elemental"? But they didn't...
Anyways, please hit FAQ, I think it IS FAQ-worthy.
Personally I would allow a "huge sized" elemental as the other wild shapes / spells do not specify a specific creature i.e. Huge plant with Plant Shape III, Huge beast/animal with beast shape IV.