I need some GMing advice...
We all know that RotR can be a grind. It was designed with tough encounters and even tougher bosses. But the PCs want to give up.
My players are currently in the watchtower before descending into the Valley of the Black Tower. They're looking down at the valley full of giants and despairing. There are overwhelming thoughts of "We're not strong enough to do this" and "It's impossible."
The players want to continue playing, but they're having a hard time justifying why their characters haven't bailed and fled to a different part of the world to let someone else deal with the problem. They're talking about holing up in Fort Rannick and waiting for the armageddon they suspect is coming.
Morale has steadily declined since the Xanesha fight at the end of Skinsaw Murders (she nearly TPK'd them and they fled). And I don't know how to bring it back. The overall feeling of fun is gone and the campaign feels much more like a grind than a game. How do I address this?
hmmmm.
Well, let them do what they want. They might feel railroaded.
What are the character classes and alignments?
are these guys mercs? Good aligned characters are going to feel a compulsion towards heroism and sacrifice, not suicide.
Maybe they can skulk home in defeat only to find a side quest from a hook in a bar from some drunk guy that leads them to a sword of giant slaying and some other booster treasure.
Or they meet a fallen Paladin in a bar who is too drunk and overcome from sorrow due to his failing in life to atone? the PCs help the paladin out, he gets his powers back and he helps them with their quest?
Alternatively DM fiat. Sit down and rebuild the characters with specific quest in mind.
Brainstorm, what do you guys need to feel like you can succeed?
Suggest classes like ranger focused on giant slaying and paladin and etc etc.
reallocate the wealth they have.
Do everything on a 1:1 trade.
A fighter can go into another full BAB class on a 1 for 1 level trade, ect etc.
So the characters and memories are all still there, they are just rebuilt in a group effort, then continue the campaign.
so in short, either side quest to find better items and return, a NPC intervention that gives them the help they need, or out of game character rebuilds, possibly throwing everyone an extra level if they need it.
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(1) Focus on noncombat aspects of the game. Give them a month off, and have them hang out in Sandpoint/Magnimar/Turtleback Ferry and realize that, "Hey, we really LIKE these people! Wouldn't it be great to save them?"
(2) Address their tactics. The notion of despairing on seeing the Valley of the Black Tower is unfortunate; my group took one look at the horde of giants and said, "Well, we're not going to fight all of THEM, so let's figure out a way to get past them and deal with the REAL villain." Seems like your group tries to take on everything head-on. Suggest to them that stealth, subterfuge, and sabotage can be equally effective.
(3) Read the other campaign threads. I'd love to advertise mine, but UseplanB's, Gluttony's, and Mazra's are all excellent as well. See whether you can get any inspiration from reading all of our threads.
(4) Kidnap Moxie Ottersqueak from Useplanb's thread and put her in your campaign. I'm certainly trying. ;-P
(4) Kidnap Moxie Ottersqueak from Useplanb's thread and put her in your campaign. I'm certainly trying. ;-P
(1904 song penned as an advertisement for Moxie, and recorded on piano roll.)
From my memories of ROTRL it isn't a campaign for finesse.
I had been running a swashbuckler type of fighter who wasn't handling it well, she retired and was replaced by a much tougher, two-handed weapon guy.
This changed it for me and I found I could handle the campaign much more enjoyably.
Talk to your players and see if they have any ideas on how to change things for the better, it might be one or two, could be all, but they may be able to suggest something you can apply without butchering the campaign?
DBH
I was playing in a kingmaker game once, and it seemed to be running into similar problems. We were starting into book three by the time the lack of steam was really apparent. There had been several deaths throughout the game, and extensive costs were paid for raise dead, combined with a large table and little adjustment to the encounters and loot received. So, I believe we were slightly underleveled and very low in comparison to what our WBL should've been. Then one of the first things we encounter in the new area almost TPKed us. As the survivors fled back to the kingdom, the group was very much of the mindset that 'We should just stay in our kingdom and build it up and abandon all this adventuring nonesense'.
I think that, as powerful as it seems, a rebuild could be beneficial to the situation. Check that their level matches where they should be, take the time to calculate the wealth of items each player is holding, and if those are matched with what they should have, let them restat. Pull out the campaign specific items, let them rebuild their characters (same characters though, just different builds) class, feats, spells, discard the old items and buy new items at WBL, and then hand back the campaign specific items. Without better knowledge of your group and this particular situation, I think this generosity will allow the game to continue instead of having it go into a death spiral. The occasional hard fight is good, but when a group becomes fearful at every encounter it's gone too far.
I was first going to suggest you let the PCs fall back to regroup and plan, to instill in them a bit of false confidence for their push onward.
But I think you guys are really onto something with the character builds and WBL. My very first character was a 3.5 gnome swashbuckler. I know that feeling of hopelessness when you're not up to scratch to deal with the encounters you should be. I'd take a long hard look at your characters level, WBL (the table is in the gamemastery section of the PRD) and combat ability (I'm sure you can find help on that front on this thread) and try to put them on the right track again.
Back to the OP--
Definitely do a quick review of the PCs' gear and make sure that they have the right tools for the job. While I prefer not to get too caught up in the loot and rewards, it really can make a difference in this amount of enjoyment the players have in the game.
For example...
Coming out of Book 3, the player of our party's wizard mentioned that they had been recovering all kinds of cool swords and armor, but that they hadn't encountered much by way of good stuff for arcane spellcasters. I could have objected, but I realized that feedback meant that the player was feeling undervalued, so I stitched in a PFS scenario into the plot with a wizard antagonist, and the party recovered some excellent loot for wizards. Plus, his character got to shine in dealing with a malfunctioning magical contraption. He also got to counterspell a lot of the bad wizard's mojo-- allowing the martial sorts to put their cool new toys to use.
Back to your game...
I'd recommend allowing them to have a couple of quick wins that are unambiguous successes, in order to build back their confidence. Aloow their good tactics to succeed. Design encouters that allow the PCs to capitalize on their strengths. If you can rig it so that they can feel heroic while they're winning, all the better.
Maybe they get the drop on a couple of giant patrols, freeing some captured humans. The also discover clues that there is a way to sneak into Jorgenfist without having to chop their way through an army.
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I think most old school DnDrs still use the BF&I method of adventuring. (Brute force and ignorance) This can spell disaster for most groups as just kicking in the front door and trying to out-beat the bad guy is generally a recipe for disaster. This could be a reason for low morale.
Generally I have found making the characters realize that they in fact are the "big damn heroes" and if they don't, who will? Investment in the town of Sandpoint and general assistance provided by the townsfolk are what drives the will to succeed.
As a GM if you feel a "character audit" as it were that would allow for a rebuild is good for morale then do it, its your game. I like the idea of side quests that are outside of RotRL for possible gear, but if you drop a +2 Giant Bane Bastard Sword in the party loot pile, BF&I is probably going to rear its head and a TPK or character death is probably going to happen.
I'd go for a wizard that talks with butterflys, (Desna) and some big damn eagles to bypass a situation that the group may be unable to do anything about. /wink
Thanks a lot everyone. I'll look into the characters' WBL. Their builds are already pretty optimized already. The party is as follows:
Human Alchemist (Vivisectionist) / Monk (Master of Many Styles) - NG - Flies around the battlefield while Mutagened, looking for flanks of flat-footed opponents to deal super Sneak Attacks. Fights defensively to gain benefit of Crane Riposte. Has stupidly high (~38) AC while buffed.
Dwarf Monk / Cleric of Cayden Cailean (Travel and Freedom Domains) - N - built after the player's original character was killed by the Skull Ripper. This guy also has super high AC (esp vs. Giants). He also makes use of his Domain power (Dimension Door-like ability) to help the Vivisectionist set up flanks. His spells are spec'd to buff his party and debuff his enemies (mostly through Shaken/Fear conditions).
Half-Elf Arcane Archer - NG - More archer than wizard. He has all your typical archer feats (Many Shot, Rapid Shot, etc). Deals around 70-120 DPR. Also tends to be the face of the party. Was originally a Human, reincarnated as a half-elf after being pasted by Papa Kreeg.
Dwarf Druid - N - Caster druid. Spends most of his time as an air elemental. Summons beasties to flank for Vivisectionist or to tie up baddies to prevent them from reaching the Arcane Archer. Usually has Call Lightning up during battle so he can bolt if he's not summoning.
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I like the idea of morale boosting encounters. Maybe the can rescue some of the prisoners taken from Sandpoint. Or maybe I can allow them to stealth about and mettle in Stone Giant inter-tribe politics. Any other thoughts? I'd like to avoid rebuilding if possible as I'm pretty sure my players are already happy with their characters.
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To be honest, reading that list of characters Im surprised they have low morale. It sounds like a solid group. Maybe take a break from the campaign and do a one off game? It would allow them to appreciate their characters more.
Although I will admit that I notice people get bored with their character more if they are optimized. I don't know if that means something but something I have noticed from playing in multiple games with multiple people over the years. My guess is they are so niche built that if they are not doing their thing they get bored.
Introduce the stone giant resistance!
Some giants from the mountains come to give them much needed intel and reinforcements. That should give them the courage to seek out the hidden entrance to Jorgenfist, especially if the giants tell them about it.
Some back-patting from NPCs can help boost morale. Did they help rebuild Sandpoint after the invasion? Free meals and a party for them can get rid of that 'In the dark future of Pathfinder, there is only war.' mentality.
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Remind them they have options other than trying to kick down the front door:
* go in the back door.
* sneak through the front door.
* use the Chewbacca defense.
* have the Druid wild shape into a mammoth and have the alchemist get ahold of a giant form I extract and pretend the other two are "captives".
* ring(s) of invisibility
Et cetera, et cetera.
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well the two multi classes are probably leaching some power here.
Why are neither of the monks lawful BTW? I thought only the martial artist could be non lawful?
Monk/cleric works pretty good in MMO, but doesn't have that synergy as much in PnP.
While teleporting and some buffing are nifty gimmicks it also seems TWO characters are concerned about helping a third character flank, and that character has gimped SA because he's a multi classed vivisectionist.
OF them the druid and the archer are probably the best set.
A dwarf ranger with the right feats to kill giants specifically would be better off than the two monks put together.
Another full caster (possibly a single classed cleric) would be the best to round things out.
The alchemist might have a high AC but honestly, he's mostly a utility character.
this is just my opinion, but that's where I'm seeing the weakness int he group.
They dont HAVE to have another divine caster, as the druid is already there, but the arcane archer has arcanist covered.
A bard could help out a lot here?
Have you thought of possibly adding a 5th player?
Thanks a lot everyone. I'll look into the characters' WBL. Their builds are already pretty optimized already. The party is as follows:
Human Alchemist (Vivisectionist) / Monk (Master of Many Styles) - NG - Flies around the battlefield while Mutagened, looking for flanks of flat-footed opponents to deal super Sneak Attacks. Fights defensively to gain benefit of Crane Riposte. Has stupidly high (~38) AC while buffed.
Dwarf Monk / Cleric of Cayden Cailean (Travel and Freedom Domains) - N - built after the player's original character was killed by the Skull Ripper. This guy also has super high AC (esp vs. Giants). He also makes use of his Domain power (Dimension Door-like ability) to help the Vivisectionist set up flanks. His spells are spec'd to buff his party and debuff his enemies (mostly through Shaken/Fear conditions).
Half-Elf Arcane Archer - NG - More archer than wizard. He has all your typical archer feats (Many Shot, Rapid Shot, etc). Deals around 70-120 DPR. Also tends to be the face of the party. Was originally a Human, reincarnated as a half-elf after being pasted by Papa Kreeg.
Dwarf Druid - N - Caster druid. Spends most of his time as an air elemental. Summons beasties to flank for Vivisectionist or to tie up baddies to prevent them from reaching the Arcane Archer. Usually has Call Lightning up during battle so he can bolt if he's not summoning.
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I like the idea of morale boosting encounters. Maybe the can rescue some of the prisoners taken from Sandpoint. Or maybe I can allow them to stealth about and mettle in Stone Giant inter-tribe politics. Any other thoughts? I'd like to avoid rebuilding if possible as I'm pretty sure my players are already happy with their characters.
dont mean to nit pick here but two things jump way out first one is cayden cailean can't have Neutral clerics (he is CG and N is more then a step removed) also monks can't be NG or N for that matter unless they are martial artists (which they are not), thats all i got.
Monks cannot progress further in monk levels if they are not Lawful (unless martial artist archetype). They keep all of their toys if they become non-Lawful.
The Neutral monk-cleric dwarf of Da Mug is in a bit of a pickle though ... CG deities don't talk to Neutral wanna-be's...
Thread title is pure awesomesauce!
Suggestions: point out that they have ridiculous defenses and should normally be able to school anything when they're on full gas. Trick is ... they might not want to run out of gas.
Maybe have some dwarf chums of theirs swing buy Fort Rannick to talk smack about killing gobs o' giants, a few friendly wagers on Most Ears Collected, maybe a marraige wager ... have fun!
I made an error transcribing the characters from memory. The Alchemist is in fact LG and the Cleric is CN and took his single level of Monk as LN before switching to Cayden Cailean worship.
Sorry for the confusion.
I'm thinking of having Cona the Wise hear about a potential party of adventurers in the area from rumors spreading through the camp. She'll take the initiative and try to seek them out instead of waiting for them to find her. Maybe she'll offer them a way into the fortress itself.
Not to keep banging the same drum, but the entire point of the fortress is subterfuge; the party isn't *supposed* to fight their way in.
My group used Invisibility Sphere, Dimension Door, and Silence, and are already in the library without a single 'real' fight. (They did beat on Conna for some nonlethal damage and coup de graced some sleeping bears.) While that's over-the-top conflict avoidance, the AP is written for the PCs to get into the fortress proper without fighting 7 armies of giants. And then it points out that none of the giants from the outside will come in, so the party only has to deal with the critters inside the fort. There are also secret passages leading in from the river side.
If the party really feels it has to defeat all of those armies and hasn't bothered to scout around for alternative entrances, I think having them meet Conna and learn that no, they just have to take out the leader and the armies will disperse would be very valuable.
I made an error transcribing the characters from memory. The Alchemist is in fact LG and the Cleric is CN and took his single level of Monk as LN before switching to Cayden Cailean worship.
Sorry for the confusion.
I'm thinking of having Cona the Wise hear about a potential party of adventurers in the area from rumors spreading through the camp. She'll take the initiative and try to seek them out instead of waiting for them to find her. Maybe she'll offer them a way into the fortress itself.
That's more or less how I used Conna too.
An obstinate, traditionalist stone giant who doesn't fall for Mokmurian's racial supremacy line can make a great temporary ally to the PCs. Mine was named Ignatius.
Have him describe Conna in captivity, then die halfway through the mission. Players love that &*#$. Well, they hate it, but deep down they know it's good story.
I had the opposite problem. I had to discourage my group from trying to take out all the camps of giants. I pointed out that giants are very good at throwing rocks. I think they got the hint I didn't want to run a fight with hundreds of combatants. A few fireballs would have done significant damage, and can be done from very far away.
Anyway, I'm on board with using Conna as a catalyst. She needs the PCs to get rid of Mokmurian, and the PCs need her moral support.
The PCs might initially think Mokmurian is in the black tower. That is the clue they are given, after all. After defeating the monk there, and discovering the information about the library, that should make them pretty interested. But if they're expecting to be surrounded and easily defeated once then venture inward, it'll be a great help to have Conna send a messenger to them (I doubt she can get out on her own -- too easily noticed missing).
I need some GMing advice...
We all know that RotR can be a grind. It was designed with tough encounters and even tougher bosses. But the PCs want to give up.
My players are currently in the watchtower before descending into the Valley of the Black Tower. They're looking down at the valley full of giants and despairing. There are overwhelming thoughts of "We're not strong enough to do this" and "It's impossible."
The players want to continue playing, but they're having a hard time justifying why their characters haven't bailed and fled to a different part of the world to let someone else deal with the problem. They're talking about holing up in Fort Rannick and waiting for the armageddon they suspect is coming.
Morale has steadily declined since the Xanesha fight at the end of Skinsaw Murders (she nearly TPK'd them and they fled). And I don't know how to bring it back. The overall feeling of fun is gone and the campaign feels much more like a grind than a game. How do I address this?
Necroed...I too am standing at the precipice at this point having solo played a party of four to this point and now this. It feels like being harnessed to an anvil while trying to scale a cliff, I don't know what to do and to make it worse, bad interactions with "friendly" npc's has made me feel they aren't worth trying to save. I just don't know.
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@Conundrum: Are there ANY npc's that your group likes in Sandpoint? How about Good characters in the party? Are you GMing? Are you playing?
What you need is one character to have the crisis, "Why are we even doing this? The people in Sandpoint are jerks? I haven't met a single person that is worthy of being saved from this fate..."
Then your Goody-two shoes character of the group, or even more interesting, the more morally ambiguous character states simply, "Because it is the right thing to do."
What is really needed is some leadership. It is difficult in a solo run, because you are generally rp-ing with yourself. Though, if you are up for writing a little bit of the interaction as prose to present to the GM, it may help things a little, maybe he'll even give bonus XP.
If you are running, it is a little late to start ground-work. So figure out something that will throw them for a loop. Maybe they discover why said npc was mean, or a jerk, and it gives them a little bit of sympathy or empathy toward the character. Have the npc apologize, or introduce another reason/npc. Namely a child or something like that. A true innocent.
Anyway, I hope that helps!
Necroed...I too am standing at the precipice at this point having solo played a party of four to this point and now this. It feels like being harnessed to an anvil while trying to scale a cliff, I don't know what to do and to make it worse, bad interactions with "friendly" npc's has made me feel they aren't worth trying to save. I just don't know.I need some GMing advice...
We all know that RotR can be a grind. It was designed with tough encounters and even tougher bosses. But the PCs want to give up.
My players are currently in the watchtower before descending into the Valley of the Black Tower. They're looking down at the valley full of giants and despairing. There are overwhelming thoughts of "We're not strong enough to do this" and "It's impossible."
The players want to continue playing, but they're having a hard time justifying why their characters haven't bailed and fled to a different part of the world to let someone else deal with the problem. They're talking about holing up in Fort Rannick and waiting for the armageddon they suspect is coming.
Morale has steadily declined since the Xanesha fight at the end of Skinsaw Murders (she nearly TPK'd them and they fled). And I don't know how to bring it back. The overall feeling of fun is gone and the campaign feels much more like a grind than a game. How do I address this?
What do you mean by bad interactions, and is one of your characters diplomatic?
I am trying to see if this is a GM issue. I am running it now, and interacting with NPC's has not been a problem for my players.
Encourage a couple players to take the Leadership Feat and recruit a couple Cohorts. Having a stray fighter or cavalier (or paladin!) to help out can be quite handy. If you're using Hero Labs, it won't add tremendously to the book keeping either.
Let's try again.
If your players/PCs believe that the only solution is to kill every single giant in the valley, and they believe that this is necessary to the plot, and that the giants are all evil, and that they cannot possibly win such a fight so the scenario ends here, then you are having a major player/GM communication issue, or just a major player expectation issue.
Make your players repeat this mantra ad nauseum until they understand it: "Not every monster must be killed. Charging in to every encounter will eventually get you killed."
EVERY AP has at least one place where a mindless headstrong charge-in-and-attack-damn-the-consequences results in a CR+4 or more encounter, and usually ends in a TPK.
I've already given my advice, but I'll repeat a variant of it: As a GM, there is little you can do if your players' complete view of the world is, "Rush in and fight them all at once," or, "Run away." In such a situation, having Conna sneak out to meet them is cheesy, but definitely your best bet.
Before your next session, I'd take your players aside and say, "I am concerned that, as a group, the only things you've thought of are a full frontal assault or abandoning the mission. Please meet among yourselves as players and see whether you can come up with any other possibilities."
If they say "none at all", re-post and I'll fire off the first six that come to mind.
EDIT: I know it's far too late for this now, but in my game after the attack on Sandpoint the party questioned the captured giants and learned that the giants' great leader had gathered together many clans to crush the humans. Made it REALLY clear that taking out the leader (rather than killing them all) was probably a good first strategy.
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@Nobody's: That is something that I have been trying to impress upon my players for the last 5 years. However, from Conundrum's post, it feels like he is dealing with a morale issue, rather than a TPK issue. Hence the advice that I gave.
The biggest problem that I have had in breaking my players of habits is when they see the game as all about the "grind." They equate undefeated enemies as untapped xp and loot... which is disappointing. But I am slowly winning them over! Persistence! ^_^
@Nobody's: That is something that I have been trying to impress upon my players for the last 5 years. However, from Conundrum's post, it feels like he is dealing with a morale issue, rather than a TPK issue. Hence the advice that I gave.
The biggest problem that I have had in breaking my players of habits is when they see the game as all about the "grind." They equate undefeated enemies as untapped xp and loot... which is disappointing. But I am slowly winning them over! Persistence! ^_^
Oh, don't I know it. Our Carrion Crown PF group is all about, "We need to go into every single room, search every nook and cranny, and kill every creature!"
Considering we're doing level points instead of XP, I don't quite see the point. But don't ask me, I'm just the fighter...
Frustrating ain't it? Wish I could play your RotRL campaign... >.< I have fun reading the Campaign Journal... Plus I am chomping at the bit to get into my Ultimate Campaign book! It can't be delivered soon enough!
Oh, all right! I'll get to it! The May 12 writeup is just so overwhelming. Raesh met her "mother". Yeah. It was big-time stuff. So I'd better get writing.
@Conundrum: Are there ANY npc's that your group likes in Sandpoint? How about Good characters in the party? Are you GMing? Are you playing?
What you need is one character to have the crisis, "Why are we even doing this? The people in Sandpoint are jerks? I haven't met a single person that is worthy of being saved from this fate..."
Then your Goody-two shoes character of the group, or even more interesting, the more morally ambiguous character states simply, "Because it is the right thing to do."
What is really needed is some leadership. It is difficult in a solo run, because you are generally rp-ing with yourself. Though, if you are up for writing a little bit of the interaction as prose to present to the GM, it may help things a little, maybe he'll even give bonus XP.
If you are running, it is a little late to start ground-work. So figure out something that will throw them for a loop. Maybe they discover why said npc was mean, or a jerk, and it gives them a little bit of sympathy or empathy toward the character. Have the npc apologize, or introduce another reason/npc. Namely a child or something like that. A true innocent. Thank you Aeshura,I am playing solo using yes...4 characters simultaneously and roleplaying four seperate personalities, lol. My inquisitor HATES sheriff hemlock after being harangued for driving out Jubrayl Vishki on behalf of Titus Scarnetti, having nearly single handedly saved the town from stone giants with a nasty bit of archery during the raid. He feels that after risking his neck he is above such petty concerns as this and should have free reign to enforce the law as he sees fit, not kow tow to the weak kneed "incompetent" sheriff hemlock, whose position only exists because of my characters actions to save everyone.
Anyway, I hope that helps!
Shoot, I just tried to write a reply and couldnt!
Ne way, I guess it's mostly Hemlock breathing down my inquisitors neck about driving off the criminal Jubrayl without following the lawbooks(i.e. not turning in evidence against him which in turn screws my contact Scarnetti). After risking life and limb to save every living thing as well as almost every business and dwelling in the town due to his stalwart courage in the face of danger and a nasty bit of crack archery to slaughter the raiding giants, my Inquisitor in particular feels that Hemlocks position wouldn't exist nay the town wouldn't exist if it weren't for him and he should be free to pursue criminals any way he sees fit, not be chided like a wayward child in public! The group ran into this in magnimar investigating the foxglove town house without a warrant(yes I have a vigilante streak but come on I am doing the right thing for the right reasons!...mostly).
Wrong avatar sorry.