does a caster gain reach with form of the dragon I bite attack


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

the spell description for form of the dragon lists pretty specific benefits gained by the spell. it does not identify whether on not the caster would gain the extended reach a dragon would normally gain with its bite attack.

Not sure on how it has been ruled yet...didn't read any similar questions through the search interface.

thanks for your help folks.

Sovereign Court

The spell is very clear as to what it grants the caster. Since it doesn't mention anything about reach it isn't something to be gained by the use of those spells.


Quote:

Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.

In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.

If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.

Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.

When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.

Bolded areas that grant or remove abilities regardless of polymorph spell. Reach isn't one of them but you should note the various caveats about greater/lesser abilities, natural attacks, etc.


I'm fairly certain that reach is an integral part of the monsters "attacks" that are given to you by the spell.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2jw52?Beast-Shape-question#14

An assertion made multiple times in this thread with a dev involved, which wasn't corrected or disputed.

Sadly this is as close as I can get to an 'official' clarification. But it is an assertion that has been repeated dozens of times in the rules question forums.

Dark Archive

Lack of correction or dispute by a dev should never qualify as confirmation. However I do agree reach, or that lack of it, is part of the natural attack.

I would say using Form of the Dragon to turn into a medium Brass Dragon would give you reach with bite (but not with its claws or wings) despite being medium just as using Beast Shape to turn into an Aurochs would not give you reach with its gore despite being large.

Grand Lodge

I believe the reach is bundled into the "apply the size modifiers appropriately" section. IN this case, a dragon's size affects its reach.


That is true. Natural reach from size would certainly apply.


This is all gold guys. My conclusion was that reach with the bite for a medium was appropriate...same as no reach for a large horse.

Thank you all for your insight and efforts. I love the Paizo Community!!!

mark kelly - hwkies

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