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It doesn't.
"Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat). For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level. For all other purposes, such as qualifying for a feat or a prestige class, the monk uses his normal base attack bonus."
You're already benefiting the extra attack that TWF would grant with Flurry. You cannot combine the two, as you're counted as if using TWF already. It is the same that a zen archer cannot combine Flurry with Rapid Shot. Flurry is superior to TWF, it would be nonsense to get feats for two weapon fighting as a monk.
In Pathfinder, unlike 3.5, you cannot combine Flurry of Blows with two-weapon fighting. However, in Pathfinder, a monk's Flurry of Blows are at +1/level BAB instead of +3/4 BAB so they don't need to stack with two-weapon fighting (and would be over-powered if they did).
As a side note, certain monk archetypes replace Flurry of Blows with other class features. These monks can benefit from the extra attacks from the Two-Weapon Fighting chain.
The only time you gain extra attacks from TWF is when you declare a full attack action.
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.
Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action.
Official RAW.
FoB requires a full attack action to use, TWF requires taking a full round action to make a full attack to get the extra attacks.
If you choose to make a FoB, you cannot take the full round action required to gain the extra attacks from TWF.
If you take the full round action to gain the extra attacks from TWF, you cannot take a full attack action to use FoB that round.
CRB has all the information you need access to in order to see the 'official' rules on the subject...
If a creature is fighting 'as if' two weapon fighting, how exactly does it simultaneously two weapon fight while fighting 'as if two weapon fighting'? You are already fighting as a TWF 'style' would, you don't just get to add an extra attack because you want to.
If they stated the monk was just using TWF there would be more rules contradictions to resolve; off hand attacks would be half damage, the penalty for TWF is static; etc.
It probably saved word count to just give the special ability description and state everything they wanted it to do instead of call out every rule it was breaking currently and add wording for trying to think of possible issues in the future.
If you are looking for a rule saying 'you can't' to make you change your mind... well there isn't one. But that doesn't make you 'right' either. You are house ruling if you allow TWF/FoB to be used in conjunction.
Flurry of blows grants the same reductions that the TWF feat does. Similar bonuses or reductions don't stack, right?
Flurry of blows grants an extra attack with an "off hand" or other limb. This would be the same kind of attack granted by using the twf action. They don't stack.
Just my 2 cp.
Two weapon fighting the feat or the action, Skylancer4, you didn't specify. The monk's extraordinary ability says that it functions as if the monk is using the TWO WEAPON FIGHTING FEAT. The feat is not the thing which gives permission to fight with two weapons, it is just a reduction of penalties. The action of TWO WEAPON FIGHTING special action does not say you need the feat. It does say that if you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you get one extra attack per round with that weapon.
The FLURRY OF BLOWS is not the two weapon fighting special attack. A character who performs the FLURRY OF BLOWS is not two weapon fighting, regardless of the benefits it rewards. Using an ability that awards the penalty reduction that the TWO WEAPON FIGHTING FEAT rewards, does not mean that the character is using the TWO WEAPON FIGHTING special attack.
Please, do not confuse the TWF special attack with the TWF Feat. They are two seperate things and one does not prevent the other from happening. Remember, The TWO WEAPON FIGHTING FEAT does not give you extra attacks, the special attack awards the extra attack.
The only thing TWF feat does is reduce penalties, it is irrelevant to the issue at hand. Using a full attack action to FoB 'as if' you are TWF'ing means you are gaining an additional attack. How are you justifying tagging on an additional attack above and beyond the attack you get from fighting as TWF'ing?
Floyd, I'm having trouble following you.
Would you please cite the page number of the "two weapon fighting action"? I can't seem to find such a thing. Sure, there is a section in the Combat chapter that details some penalties for fighting with two weapons, but it still is not an action.
Any time, every time, that you make more than one attack, you always use the "Full Attack" action. This does not matter whether you are using two weapons, one weapon lots of times, Flurry of Blows, or maybe you're just a monster with two claws and a bite. It's always a Full Attack action.
"Two Weapon Fighting" is only a feat. Sure, we can use those words to describe a guy fighting with two weapons, but the game has no such term. He's a dual wielder, or a Florentine fighter, or two weapon fighter, or a flurry of blower, or anything else we want to call him.
What does the feat do? Give extra attacks? Nope. Not at all. Everyone with two hands can pick up two weapons and make two attacks per round as part of a Full Attack action.
So what does the Two Weapon Fighting feat do? It reduces the penalties for making attacks with two weapons. That's it.
What does Flurry of Blows do? Lots of things, actually. It allows monks, especially higher level monks, to get more attacks and to use his class level as his BAB when using this ability, and it lets him use all his STR damage bonus on every attack. It has some restrictions about which weapons can be used with this ability. And, it also reduces the penalties for using more than one weapon as if using the Two Weapon Fighting feat.
Note that last part - the only thing that Flurry of Blows does that is like the Two Weapon Fighting feat is reduce the penalties. Everything else Flurry of Blows does for the monk is very much not like the feat (giving extra attacks, increasing BAB, STR damage, restricting weapon use).
Given that, how could you possibly stack them?
The table in the combat chapter says that you are -6/-10 fighting with two weapons, only -4/-4 if using Two Weapon Fighting feat, and only -2/-2 if using the feat and a light weapon. Inserting Flurry of Blows gives you exactly the same thing, -2/-2 because all the monk's restricted choices (I think) are light weapons (if not, then you're still -4/-4), exactly as if using the Two Weapon Fighting feat.
Or, to put it another way, using two abilities that each set your penalty to exactly -2/-2 means that your penalty is -2/-2, exactly as if you had only used one of those abilities. It's the same thing.
If your character has an ability that works as a specific feat, you cannot also take the feat to double the effect, as you already have the effect.
There are several classes that have abilities that work like feats. They all work like this.
Flurry of Blows is a 2-handed action that works like 2WF feat, also having the feat provides no additional bonus.
Language in any rule can be twisted of nuance by any decent rules lawyer, this however does not change the intent of the rule, especially when combining the language of two or more different rules. The intent has already been explained by most of the posters on this thread.
Floyd isn't talking about using the feat in addition to the effect.
He wants to get an additional attack by declaring that he's fighting with two weapons in addition to declaring that he's using flurry of blows.
In my eyes, these two actions can't stack, since flurry of blows is a special full-attack action ("can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action"), while getting extra attacks through fighting with two weapons is part of the regular full-attack action (see the first sentence under "Full Attack" in the Combat chapter).
If my adventuring group has a wizard and a sorcerer, and they both cast haste on me, can I take TWO extra attacks? If they both cast True Strike on my attack, do I get +40 on the roll?
No. Because bonuses granted from the same thing don't stack, even when the source is different.
Likewise, you cannot stack the bonus extra attack from wielding a second weapon (Two Weapon Fighting source) with the bonus extra attack from Flurry of Blows (monk source) since they are from the same thing - Flurry of Blows is the Two-Weapon fighting rule rolled in with some special monk flavor and even more than just one bonus extra attack when he's high enough level.
It's the same thing because a guy with two swords is striking his enemy with more than one weapon available to him. A monk with Flurry of Blows is striking his enemy with more than one weapon available to him. The rules are the same, though the Flurry of Blows has some extra monk stuff added in and it also incorporates the penalty reduction from the Two Weapon Fighting feat.
Neither am I, but your FoB1+Fob2+2WF penalty stats suggests you are doing 2 FoB attacks followed by a 2WF attack - you can't do that. Either do all your FoB attacks in a given round, or perform 2WF attacks. You cannot combine the effects of both in the same round.
The fact that FoB states this works as if using the Two Weapon Fighting feat, means all rules regarding 2WF itself is negated by the way FoB works. Any issues concerning 2WF does not belong in an action involving FoB.
Ok, how about in other cases when you can do things as part of a full attack action, meaning when you're already doing a full attack, it states it, where in the case of Two Weapon fighting, it says it requires a full attack action to use, not that it can be used as part of a full attack action.
You can not simultaneouly do 2 things that both require a full attack action, unless one of them is allowed as part of a full attack action.
I'm not good at lawyer speak.
I want to thank everyone for discussing this with me. It is a highly debated topic, and I can see the points you are making from a story point of view, but I like to think I am siting from rules as written.
Sorry, it's really not debatable, and your implication of RAW is countered by your next point...
That being said, all 1st level character can perform two weapon fighting regardless what is in their other hand. Unarmed strike, and two types of shields are on the weapon chart.
Even without the 2WF feat, your character has 2 hands, so yes he can swing a sword and use his off-hand with a penalty. Using both your hands is a full attack, at 1st level. However, FoB is also a full attack action, which means you can do 2 attacks as a normal 1st level PC, or you can do 2 attacks with FoB - you can't do 4 or 3 attacks only 2, no matter how much you try to bend the rules.
Bending rules is not "sitting from rules as written".
The only reason I mention this is because I do not think a first level character having three attacks all that overpowered. It is unique to Monks but still only one attack higher that every other character. Mind you, NPC and monster monks can also do this, so it evens out.
I don't necessarily think 3 FoB attacks by a 1st level monk is over-powered either. Still without breaking the rules, you can't do it, so don't worry about, you'll eventually get plenty of attacks per round with FoB beyond 1st level - just survive a level or 2 and you'll be fine.
Core rules, under Combat: Standard Actions - Multiple Attack page 184.
A character who can make more than one attack per round must use a full attack action (see Full Round Actions) in order to get more than one attack.
You've pointed to all the right pages and rulings, but you're apparently not reading what's there.
Fob is full round action (page 57), Multiple Attacks is a full round action (page 184), Full Round Actions state you can only do a full round action, no move action, nor standard action (page 187) - you're not allowed to do 2 full round actions. There it is by RAW clearly stated.
Fighting with two weapons is part of the regular "Full Attack" action, as evidenced by it being discussed under that heading in the Combat chapter along with getting multiple iterative attacks.
Full Attack
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.
They are not opinions. We are telling you what the rules are. Your lack of understanding is confusing you Floyd.<--Not an insult, just a fact.
They work the same with regard to number of attacks. So yes you can take the feats, but since the feat and FoB do the same thing you would not get extra attacks. They overlap, not stack. Similar effects don't stack.
TWF is a special attack that takes place during a full attack if you choose to use TWF. It is not so much that TWF demands a special attack, but since it gives multiple attacks you must lock yourself into a full attack in order to use it. Semantics, but the effect is the same since you can't use it without a full attack, then it for all intents and purposes, requires a full attack.
By that logic you cannot combine attacks from high attack bonus with TWO WEAPON FIGHTING, which makes TWO WEAPON FIGHTING obsolete as soon as a character gets a BAB of +6.
Not so, since they are the same action (the "full attack" action). The same action that allows additional attacks for high BAB also allows additional attacks for fighting with multiple/double weapons.
Flurry of blows, on the other hand, is an action of its own. You can't combine the FoB-attacks with extra iterative attacks (already incorporated), and you can't combine them with extra two-weapon attacks (also already incorporated).
Got to agree with the consensus, here.
To get more than 1 attack in a round using the Two Weapon Fighting combat option, you must use the full-attack action.
To make a Flurry of Blows a monk must use the full-attack action.
You may only make one full-round action each round of combat. Two Weapon Fighting and Flurry of Blows are mutually exclusive because they are both different (albeit similar in some respects) versions of the full-attack action.
Edit to add: it is already well-established (thanks to the TWF FAQ) that the "version" of the full-attack action has to be chosen on the first attack: a character with iterative attacks can pick and choose between which weapons he makes each iterative attack with, or he can take the penalties up-front and get the extra attack from TWF, or (if he is a monk) he may choose to do a flurry of blows.
I thought you'd already stated that you weren't implying using the 2WF feat, rather Multiple attacks available to a 1st level PC, yet here you are doing exactly that.
I agree with that, but the wording says more than one action. FLURRY OF BLOWS grants 2 and TWO WEAPON FIGHTING award another for a total of three.
You can't get the benefit of the additional attack from TWO WEAPON FIGHTING if you don't have the feat. If you don't have the feat you are using Multiple Attack action which doesn't provide you an extra attack, but is a Full Attack action.
Three is more than one. This does not say: TWO WEAPON FIGHTING is a full attack action. That's Because TWO WEAPON FIGHTING is a special attack that applies to other actions like FLURRY OF BLOWS.
No, Two Weapon Fighting is both a feat allowing you an extra attack if you wield 2 weapons, and a Multiple Attack action which is a full round action. It is not a Special Attack applying to anything else.
Since FoB is also a full round action, and you can't do 2 full round actions in the same round, the rest of your argument is meaningless.
Sorry, I really tried to help with simple explanations rather than digging through rules, but even after doing so, you're not getting my meaning, so I don't think I can help you.
Unless it's for PFS which is more hard-core about the rules, it's your game run it however you want.
I disagree with your premise. Nuff said.
You're missing my point, Floyd.
There's an action called "full attack". This single action allows iterative attacks as well as additional attacks from fighting with multiple/double weapons.
There's another action called "flurry of blows". While this action must be used "as a full-attack action", it's not the same action as the "full attack" action itself. Thus you can't combine the benefits of the two actions.
I thought you'd already stated that you weren't implying using the 2WF feat, rather Multiple attacks available to a 1st level PC, yet here you are doing exactly that.
I agree with that, but the wording says more than one action. FLURRY OF BLOWS grants 2 and TWO WEAPON FIGHTING award another for a total of three.You can't get the benefit of the additional attack from TWO WEAPON FIGHTING if you don't have the feat. If you don't have the feat you are using Multiple Attack action which doesn't provide you an extra attack, but is a Full Attack action.
Three is more than one. This does not say: TWO WEAPON FIGHTING is a full attack action. That's Because TWO WEAPON FIGHTING is a special attack that applies to other actions like FLURRY OF BLOWS.No, Two Weapon Fighting is both a feat allowing you an extra attack if you wield 2 weapons, and a Multiple Attack action which is a full round action. It is not a Special Attack.
Since FoB is also a full round action, and you can't do 2 full round actions in the same round, the rest of your argument is meaningless.
Sorry, I really tried to help with simple explanations rather than digging through rules, but even after doing so, you're not getting my meaning, so I don't think I can help you.
Unless it's for PFS which is more hard-core about the rules, it's your game run it however you want.
I disagree with your premise. Nuff said.
The only thing the TWF feat does is lessen penalties. Any one can TWF that's straight RAW and RAI. However without the feat it's a a pretty big penalty you would have to eat to make it functional.
Game Printer
Did you read the description on TWO WEAPON FIGHTING on page 202? Can you add an attack to an action that already has more than one attack. Simple explanations cannot suffice here. And as much as you are trying to help, you are not supporting your arguments with facts, or book pages; just interpretations. You picked your side, and that's fine, but with out facts sighted by page numbers, you can't help me. Sorry.
TWO WEAPON FIGHTING can add attacks to actions that already have multiple attacks. Pg 202.
To be precise TWF can add 1 attack with the off hand to a full attack action. Not to any action with multiple attacks. It doesn't let a magus get an extra attack on spell combat. You can't use it to get more attacks with whirlwind attack, and it doesn't let you offhand when you successfully activate cleave.
So which is it? Are claiming the feat or not?
I am not claiming to have the TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING FEAT. If I were to perform an FLURRY OF BLOWS, then immediately followed by and off hand attack awarded by TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING, without the TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING FEAT
or...
Did you read the description on TWO WEAPON FIGHTING on page 202?
Nobody can have a reasonable discussion or debate if one of the parties can't stand on solid ground with any issue, or makes claims of special attacks that are actually multiple attacks and full round actions.
I don't want to argue, so I'm done.
Talonhawke
Wait, I don't agee with your second post
So your actually under the assumption that anytime you get more than one attack you can add TWF?