So I too like the idea of the Mystic Theurge but hate how weak they are. I decided to try my hand at writing up a Mystic Theurge base class. You can find it HERE.
My main goals were to 1) differentiate it from the wizard/witch/cleric, 2) give it some interesting abilities for customization and 3) avoid the pit fall of either falling way behind the other full casters OR allowing them to cherry pick all the best spells becoming a better choice than the Wizard or Cleric.
So chose a class construction similar to the Witch or Oracle(in many ways it is a witch alt class). I gave the "Rites" instead of Hexes or Revelations, and fixed the spell access issue by having their mystery or patron spells be selectable from any spell list. The only thing I haven't done is write up a full spell list. I selected Cha to avoid the whole Wis/Int double requirement, and it doesn't really benefit them otherwise.
For the spell list I was thinking of taking some of the good spells and may utility spells, but leaving the best ones off the list (so you have something you want to take). One of the thing I had intended to do was keep the higher spell level between the Cleric and Wizard lists. For instance blindness/deafness is a Wizard 2/Cleric 3 spell, so for the MT it would be a 3rd. On the same token animate dead is a Cleric 3/Wizard 4, so for MT it would be lvl 4.
Tell me what you think. Are the Rites too weak/strong, do they seem kind of lame? Would you ever play a Cleric or Wizard if this was available to you?
Hmm... Interesting...
Though I think Mystic Theurge is fine as is. Yeah it might not get Level 9 spells but it does allow some nice Flexibility. And really what Level 9 spells are you really going to cast on a regular basis?
The issue with MT isn't so much "doesn't get 9th level spells" as it is "is 2-5 (depending on which class combination you use) levels of casting behind a straight caster of the same level". You have a lot of spells, yes, but you're heavily handicapped compared to a non-multiclassed caster of either of your classes... to the point where your versatility doesn't pay off the exchange of delay.
It depends on the Campaign and Party whether or not that matters.
I actually like the Mystic Theurge prestige class. Sure, my spells aren't as powerful (does a loss of 1 DC really make that much of a difference?), but I can always count on having the right spell for the job. Against caster BBEGs I used Improved Counterspell to keep it from casting too much. Otherwise, I could control the battlefield as I saw fit. And I was a pretty decent Melee combatant that could dis out a little damage when necessary.
Trust me, the prestige class is fine as it is, with some creativity. If you really want some feedback on the re-write, drop the domains. It doesn't need that option. It has plenty of options as is.
It depends on the Campaign and Party whether or not that matters.
While true, that's true of every class or combination.
I have a Mystic Theurge that was specifically built around Buffs and Debuffs. I don't regularly cast any spell over 4th Level.
A Sorcerer/Oracle Mystic Theurge still only has 2nd level spells at 9th level.
In general, Mystic Theurges fall pretty sharply behind in the 6-10 range.
Dotting for interest.
Should Unsanctioned Knowledge treat spells as being of whatever level they appear on the Sorcerer/Wizard, Cleric/Oracle, or Druid spell list, provided it appears on one of them? As written, it lets them grab a lot of spells at discounted levels (e.g. Haste and pretty much anything of 3rd level or higher on the Summoner spell list) and I'm not sure whether that was intentional.
Who mentioned anything of a Soracle Mystic Theurge? Though it could be a potent combo in the right Campaign & Group.
That was the combo I intended with the 5 levels behind in my 2-5 range estimate.
Should Unsanctioned Knowledge treat spells as being of whatever level they appear on the Sorcerer/Wizard, Cleric/Oracle, or Druid spell list, provided it appears on one of them? As written, it lets them grab a lot of spells at discounted levels (e.g. Haste and pretty much anything of 3rd level or higher on the Summoner spell list) and I'm not sure whether that was intentional.
I definitely considered just that when writing it. One of the ways you avoid this is by the "not on your spell list" phrase. For instance teleport is going to be on the MT spell list at level 5, so you can't use UK to grab it from the summoner list at as a level 4. The Summoner list causes problems for several similar abilities, but there are only a few spell (like haste) where this could be game breaking.
Another thing I have been playing with is the idea of making them a 3/4th caster as a bard or magus, to help maintain the original feel of a slowed spell progression. Any thoughts?
So use the Bard/Inquisitor Spell Progression. Could work.
i've already seen this done as an oracle mystery...now where was that?
found it
they were made by kaisc006, hope this helps with your build.
This is interesting, I'll have to take a look later.
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Folks interested in a Mystic Theurge-like base class might want to check out the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press
One of the new classes in the book is the theurge, a base class that combines arcane and divine in new and interesting ways.
If you want to play a balanced, interesting arcane/divine caster, I think the theurge might be just what you are looking for :)
I'm not big on thread necromancy, but just the sake of sparing anyone the trouble if they stumble onto this (since someone else necro'd it) this class is pretty ridiculously powerful (even without a spell list attached).
The list of Mystic Rite options reads like a child's Christmas card to Santa Claus. Channel energy (based off of primary casting stat), spontaneous metamagic (without increasing spell level), evasion, familiar, flight, casting in armor (up to medium), standard action summon monster spells: these are all pretty bad alone, and combined they are pretty ridiculous.
That doesn't touch on the two worst on the list - Focusing Rite and Penetrating Rite. The first provides +3 DC for two schools of magic of your choice - this stacks with spell focus and such. Even without things like spell perfection that has trouble written all over it. The second provides (up to) +5 vs. SR and on checks made with dispel magic. Effectively it's worth three our four feats.
Bad design in my opinion.
I'm not big on thread necromancy, but just the sake of sparing anyone the trouble if they stumble onto this (since someone else necro'd it) this class is pretty ridiculously powerful (even without a spell list attached).
The list of Mystic Rite options reads like a child's Christmas card to Santa Claus. Channel energy (based off of primary casting stat), spontaneous metamagic (without increasing spell level), evasion, familiar, flight, casting in armor (up to medium), standard action summon monster spells: these are all pretty bad alone, and combined they are pretty ridiculous.
The only one of these abilities I'd be concerned about is Quickening Rite, and you can't even get that until 15th level, and even then only once per day. It's fine.
That doesn't touch on the two worst on the list - Focusing Rite and Penetrating Rite. The first provides +3 DC for two schools of magic of your choice - this stacks with spell focus and such. Even without things like spell perfection that has trouble written all over it. The second provides (up to) +5 vs. SR and on checks made with dispel magic. Effectively it's worth three our four feats.
Bad design in my opinion.
I'm not sure what you're worried about here either. A class feature worth more than a feat? Oh no! Also keep in mind that both of these abilities scale over time.
Really the balance of this class is 100% dependent upon what's on the spell list, and with the author's suggestions (higher level of everywhere the Cleric/Wizard list intersects, all the best spells ripped out) I think it should be fine. It's not going to end up more problematic than a Wizard or Cleric, at any rate.
Do think that restriction on non-chaotic alignments is weird though.
Folks interested in a Mystic Theurge-like base class might want to check out the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press
One of the new classes in the book is the theurge, a base class that combines arcane and divine in new and interesting ways.
If you want to play a balanced, interesting arcane/divine caster, I think the theurge might be just what you are looking for :)
That's why I bought it...one of the reasons.
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That's why I bought it...one of the reasons.Folks interested in a Mystic Theurge-like base class might want to check out the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press
One of the new classes in the book is the theurge, a base class that combines arcane and divine in new and interesting ways.
If you want to play a balanced, interesting arcane/divine caster, I think the theurge might be just what you are looking for :)
Awesome!
The only one of these abilities I'd be concerned about is Quickening Rite, and you can't even get that until 15th level, and even then only once per day. It's fine.
I suppose it depends upon your game play style. I'm fairly certain we've butted heads before on playstyle, but I'll acknowledge that if subscribe to the same school as Anzyr and others - that you can supplant armor class entirely with defensive buffs - some of these seem less egregious.
I tend to think arcane caster in mithril full plate is a little excessive at mid levels with relatively mild investment. The metamagic isn't that worrisome, but standard action summons with marginal investment is pretty powerful. None of these abilities is particularly thematic, and it reads more like a list of things you might want.
I'm not sure what you're worried about here either. A class feature worth more than a feat? Oh no! Also keep in mind that both of these abilities scale over time.
More worried about the class feature that mechanically duplicates six feats and stacks with them to produce very high DC spells for relatively little investment. +3 spell DCs is excessive in almost any case, but especially as an all the time boon that requires marginal investment.
Really the balance of this class is 100% dependent upon what's on the spell list, and with the author's suggestions (higher level of everywhere the Cleric/Wizard list intersects, all the best spells ripped out) I think it should be fine. It's not going to end up more problematic than a Wizard or Cleric, at any rate.
First, the designer at no point suggested that all of the 'best' spells would be ripped out. He suggested perhaps removing some of them. Second, that limitation means very little, since the class has a built in means of adding new spells to its spell list. Third, he could mash up the best of both spell lists and that wouldn't be my concern.
My experience has been that potential actions are less of a problem in gameplay for experienced Gms than inflated core statistics (such as spell DC, armor class, attack bonus, and so forth). Right now this guy has inflated DCs relative to everyone else - and rather non-sensibly to boot. It feels unbalanced and poorly crafted.
I would say that many of these abilities are lifted almost completely from the Witch Hex list or Magus Arcana list (all of the metamagic ones). If it's not overpowered for a Magus to used Empower Spell Arcana, I'm not sure it's overpowered for my Thurge to do so. I do agree that some of the bonuses seem kind of high, it's been a while since I looked at it, and I can't remember my thinking in writing it up that way. I don't think that giving it channel energy or casting in armor is that over powering, since the cleric and oracle can both cast in armor, as can the Magus and Bard, and the channel energy ability is lifted right off the Life Oracle list and it works at level -2.
If you read the OP, I do say that I was thinking of dropping the "best" spells from the list, although I never got around to doing that.
Also, I actaully ask in the OP if the Rites are too powerful. In retrospect, Focusing and Penetrating are probably overpowered. I would probably eliminate the scaling, or maybe only increase to +2 total. For Penetrating, I agree. Probably down to only +3 total, instead of +5.